Israel - Hamas War IX

[Tears of Lys]

17 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

I wouldn't described independent journalist Alexander Higgins as a credible source or his post on X as something credible or reliable.  His posts on his X page doesn't inspire confidence.  Also never heard of Storyful.  

Can't tell if the fog of war comment was your own comment, or part of the copied article, but I do agree that there is a ton of misinformation out there, which is why I don't rely on anything from X or from alleged independent journalists.

Yes, that was my comment.  I put what was quoted in quote marks.

My point being that all these reports of X firing at Y and Y kiilling Z, etc., etc., are all just fog at this point. 

I've never heard of Storyful either.  But everyone's a friggin' expert all of a sudden.

[Zorral]

IDF demands the hospitals evacuate, but how do they evacuate in these conditions?

Fighting rages around Gaza’s hospitals as civilians flee for safety
By Claire Parker, Miriam Berger, Sarah Dadouch, Paul Schemm and Carrie Keller-Lynn
Updated November 10, 2023 at 3:40 p.m. EST|Published November 10, 2023 at 8:54 a.m. EST

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/10/gaza-israel-palestinians-hospitals-hamas/

Quote

 

JERUSALEM — Israeli tanks, explosions and artillery blasts surrounded Gaza City’s overcrowded hospitals Friday, targeting facilities that Israeli forces say double as Hamas strongholds even as the advance forced thousands more civilians to make dangerous journeys through battle zones.

At least seven hospitals reported being under siege or in proximity to the fighting in Gaza City, the heaviest urban combat yet in the one-month-old war. Hospitals have been struggling with scarce resources to deal not only with the inflow of casualties but also thousands of Palestinians seeking refuge. ...

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Good interview.

 

[Mudguard]

Israel has claimed for weeks that the death toll in Israel from the Oct 7th massacre was 1400.  Now they have lowered the number to 1200.

Quote

Israel now believes around 1,200 people were killed by Hamas in a series of brutal attacks on Israeli communities and gatherings near Gaza on October 7.

The new figure is a downward revision from the government's previous figure of 1,400. It includes foreign workers and other foreign nationals killed in the attack, Israeli foreign ministry spokesperson Lior Haiat said.

The new number reflects “the fact there were a lot of corpses that were not identified and which we now think belong to terrorists … not Israeli casualties,” Haiat said, according to the Times of Israel.
The current estimate of 1,200 is not a final number, Haiat emphasized, because some of the bodies are yet to be identified.

Should we now treat all of Israel's numbers as untrustworthy going forward?  

I have been saying for a while that the numbers put out on both sides are often just estimates based on the best information that they have at the moment, and this is especially true when the authorities are trying to get out early estimates.  Revisions to the numbers happens all the time and is normal, and shouldn't be used as a gotcha for proof of deliberate manipulation.  I think there should be more evidence of manipulation before you make that claim.  We see revisions to casualties numbers even in local US reporting on shootings here.  It's not surprising that it can be difficult to determine accurate numbers in the chaos of war.

[Zorral]

Pro-Israel Group Tying Journos to Hamas Now Just ‘Raising Questions’
‘THAT’S WHAT WE DO’
The implication that legacy outlets had advance knowledge of the Oct. 7 attacks and “coordinated” with Hamas prompted Israeli officials to call for the death of journalists.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/pro-israel-group-honestreporting-which-tied-journalists-to-hamas-now-just-raising-questions#:~:text=The pro-Israel media “watchdog,to back up that suggestion.

Quote

 

The pro-Israel media “watchdog” behind the hyper-viral story suggesting Palestinian journalists knew in advance about the Oct. 7 Hamas attack now claims it was merely “raising questions” and has no evidence to back up that suggestion.

HonestReporting, an organization that says its mission is to “combat ideological prejudice in journalism and the media” as it relates to Israel and Zionism, published a report

https://honestreporting.com/photographers-without-borders-ap-reuters-pictures-of-hamas-atrocities-raise-ethical-questions/

this week accusing photojournalists working for legacy media outlets of possibly coordinating with Hamas militants during the deadly attacks.

“What were they doing there so early on what would ordinarily have been a quiet Saturday morning?” the story noted. “Was it coordinated with Hamas? Did the respectable wire services, which published their photos, approve of their presence inside enemy territory, together with the terrorist infiltrators?”

Gil Hoffman, executive director of HonestReporting, told the Associated Press that he had no proof

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-photographers-attack-200be1ba47361f1c1fc113cdaeb65d04

 to support the insinuation that the organization was making, adding that he was satisfied with the denials that several outlets and journalists have made in the wake of the story. ....

 

So, then, why the fuck did he publish that garbage?

[TrueMetis]

To give cover for all the murdered journalists.

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

Palestinians reported killed in Israeli military ‘corridor’ between north and south Gaza, UN says.

Doesn't sound like a very safe corridor to me. Does anyone know if Israel actually implemented the four hour pauses?

[Craving Peaches]

Reports coming from al-Shifa hospital suggest anyone who tries to leave the hospital is being killed. Al Jazeera has translated what the hospital director said into English. Here is some of what he was reported as saying.

Quote

All I can say is that we’ve started to lose lives. Patients are dying by the minute, victims and wounded are also dying – even babies in the incubators.

We lost a baby in the incubator, we also lost a young man in the intensive care unit.

He also said:

Quote

The hospital is left without power, internet and even without water and medical supplies.

Quote

One member of a medical crew who tried to reach the incubator to lend a helping hand to the babies born inside was shot and killed.

Quote

The hospital compound is cordoned off and the buildings of the hospital are targeted. Any moving person within the compound is targeted. The Israeli occupation forces are outside, preventing any person to move.

And a journalist within the hospital (supposedly the only one left) was reported by Al Jazeera as saying:

Quote

Journalist Mustafa Sarsour speaking from inside the hospital says drones have been hovering in the area, targeting individuals moving within or outside the hospital compound.

“One family tried to leave the compound and by the time they left the outer gates … they were all killed,” he said, adding that all roads leading to the hospital had been fully or partially destroyed.

“No one is able to leave the hospital compound due to the ferocious fighting.”

 

[Ran]

Hamas should lay down their arms, to end the ferocious fighting.

I also wish people listened when they were reportedly urged to get away from these hospitals. There are hospitals in the south that are not going to see Israeli troops on their doorsteps.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ran

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

I also wish people listened when they were reportedly urged to get away from these hospitals. There are hospitals in the south that are not going to see Israeli troops on their doorsteps.

 

 

Patients like babies in incubators might not survive a journey to another hospital, especially a tumultuous and uncertain journey. 

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Patients like babies in incubators might not survive a journey to another hospital, especially a tumultuous and uncertain journey. 

All the more reason to have started the process as early as possible when there was still fuel for generators and so on. Alas, too late now.

[TrueMetis]

So we've moved from "Israel didn't attack the hospital" to "it's fine Israel attacked the hospital, they did warn you."

Didn't take long did it?

[Ran]

18 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

So we've moved from "Israel didn't attack the hospital" to "it's fine Israel attacked the hospital, they did warn you."

Didn't take long did it?

Scare quotes around things no one said is very persuasive, somewhere, I'm sure.

 

[Ran]

Per the IDF's Arabic language spokesperson, the IDF's making a big push to evacuate people. From 9AM to 4PM, the Salah al-Din road will be available for safe passage. Plus they're also opening up the coastal road, as a second safe route. Finally, it looks like fighting in Jabalia has been ongoing, but they're giving a 10AM to 2PM window for people to leave towards the south safely.

Notably, they also provide Telegram address and a phone number to report Hamas interference with anyone trying to get south.

 

[Mudguard]

It's ridiculous to blame the hospital staff and patients for not leaving when people are constantly being injured by Israel's constant bombardment and need treatment at all these hospitals.  The Israeli embargo on fuel and other supplies has closed down many hospitals, leaving fewer and fewer hospitals to treat then tens of thousands of people who have been wounded, many with very serious injuries including loss of limbs and/or severe burns.  

Are the hospital staff just supposed to abandon all these people that desperately need aid?  If anything, they should be praised for staying and continuing to treat their patients under extreme duress.  The death toll could be twice what it currently is if everyone just abandoned their post and left civilians to fend for themselves.

You also can't just leave for the south and instantly set up shop at another location.  You couldn't do this even during times of peace, much less during nonstop bombardment, including in the south where Israel is telling everyone to go.  There are no spare medical infrastructure or equipment in the south where they can just take over.  Also, for those critically injured in the North, forcing them to be taken all the way to the south reduces their chances of survival, and also adds extra burden to the hospitals in the south.  

[TrueMetis]

Also you know, Israel keeps bombing the places they call safe, so why leave for another area you might be killed?

[Relic]

Dying in Gaza? Well, its your own damn fault for being born Palestinian. Should have known better. 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Hamas should lay down their arms, to end the ferocious fighting.

You and I already know, when saying that, that Hamas aren't going to do that. So what's the point you're trying to make by saying it?

Quote

I also wish people listened when they were reportedly urged to get away from these hospitals. There are hospitals in the south that are not going to see Israeli troops on their doorsteps.

But again, you have to know this is not a realistic statement to make. Some patients could not leave. The hospitals in the south do not have the capacity to care for them anyway. And the IDF will indeed be on those hospitals' doorsteps if and when they decide there's a reason to be. So again, I'm struggling to see what point you're trying to make here.

[Ran]

21 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

It's ridiculous to blame the hospital staff and patients for not leaving when people are constantly being injured by Israel's constant bombardment and need treatment at all these hospitals. 

If you have seen footage from inside these hospitals, you will know that the vast majority of people who sheltered within them are healthy-bodied people. Instead of tens of thousands of people, by this point in time there should have been staff and a few hundred truly immobile people, not families trying to dodge gunfire from both sides as they decide now is the time to escape.

21 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

The Israeli embargo on fuel and other supplies has closed down many hospitals, leaving fewer and fewer hospitals to treat then tens of thousands of people who have been wounded, many with very serious injuries including loss of limbs and/or severe burns.  

There are hospitals in the south still active, and much safer than Shifa and Indonesian, in particular.

21 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Are the hospital staff just supposed to abandon all these people that desperately need aid? 

I'm talking about the tens of thousands who decided to shelter at hospitals at Shifa, knowing full well that it was a Hamas base and a target of the IDF ground operations. For patients, more efforts should have been made to evacuate as many south to other hospitals as possible, but there is little evidence that this happened because it was better to keep insisting they were all immobile and to demand fuel (because Hamas kept taking it).

 

21 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

If anything, they should be praised for staying and continuing to treat their patients under extreme duress.

I have no issue with the doctors and nurses who stay to care for the people who truly could not move.

But I take issue with the doctors and nurses who did not demand that Hamas allowed those who could move to be moved, and for those trying to get south not to be blockaded or attacked by Hamas.

21 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

You also can't just leave for the south and instantly set up shop at another location.

And yet now they are doing just that, otherwise why are there people still evacuating?

Al-Shifa is a Hamas base. It is public knowledge in Gaza, it is public knowledge to the press who have worked there who admitted that they could not show the armed people going in and out of the offices that they have there. Fortunately, it sounds like many have finally evacuated from these hospitals, but it's a shame that it took the IDF being within a few hundred meters away and in active gunfights with Hamas for people to do it. As I said from the very start, ground operations will likely mean civilian casualties go up, not down, unless the civilians have evacuated from the area of urban fighting.

Presumably there'll be a point where a corridor can be made to allow more people to get out of Shifa safely, but so long as Hamas is fighting the IDF in the area rather than bunkering in their tunnels, I don't think that'll happen soon.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ran

[Ran]

Speaking of Al-Shifa, people believe the AFP live stream is just a few hundred meters to the west and south of Al-Shifa. Fairly regular gunfire being heard in the distance right now.