Marvel's Multiverse of Maddening Returns

[SpaceChampion]

They've had several Fantastic Four movies with Doom as the villain, and it didn't seem to me that the general public was all that interested.  Switching from Kang to Doom would be quite the Hail Mary, and more likely to fail than succeed.

[Arakasi]

Doom could be fine if they leaned into more of “evil Iron Man” rather than emo dude in a suit. Basically you need someone charismatic and you need that person to spend a bunch of their time as Viktor and not Doom. But when you see Doom it needs to be full iron man mode.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

They've had several Fantastic Four movies with Doom as the villain, and it didn't seem to me that the general public was all that interested.  Switching from Kang to Doom would be quite the Hail Mary, and more likely to fail than succeed.

The problem with the fantastic four was never doom. It's that FF appeals mostly to old people and they're not that interesting in terms of powers or background.

They should, imo, just make a standalone doom movie. 

[Jaxom 1974]

A little Doom 2099?

And I do think outside possible to tell a good FF story, but it's a pretty small needle to thread. The FF isn't like Spider-Man, who doesn't have to have his origin told every time out, but stopping to explain how the FF came to be can really weigh down the ways they can be interesting...

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

They've had several Fantastic Four movies with Doom as the villain, and it didn't seem to me that the general public was all that interested.  Switching from Kang to Doom would be quite the Hail Mary, and more likely to fail than succeed.

 

Neither version of Doom was really a proper Doom. Get him right and he's... well, the best.

[Arakasi]

Doom is pretty cool if well done. FF are just kinda lame even at their best. The powers are just not compelling and the character archetypes aren’t that interesting.

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Arakasi said:

Doom is pretty cool if well done. FF are just kinda lame even at their best. The powers are just not compelling and the character archetypes aren’t that interesting.

There's some interesting interfamily drama that could be mined around Kang being Reed Richards' descendant, and Reed's son - Ben - status as a mutant. 

Not that I expect that to happen, but hey, the stories and dramatic potential are there. 

[Heartofice]

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

FF are just kinda lame even at their best. The powers are just not compelling and the character archetypes aren’t that interesting.

I don't know about that. Unlike some of the recent entries in the MCU, at least each member of the FF has a distinct personality, and fits a sort of recognisable archetype. There is also inbuilt conflict within each of their characters that makes them interesting. 

That doesn't mean they haven't been handled in lame and uninteresting ways in the past, but I do think there is a more interesting idea there than other properties. 

I just would like an FF movie to embrace the silliness of Dr Doom a bit, every one so far seems deeply embarrassed of the character.

[Liffguard]

There's already been an amazing Fantastic Four movie, it was called The Incredibles and it's one of the best superhero movies ever made.

Okay sure, I'm being flippant, but there is a point there. To make a good F4 movie, make it a compelling family drama with warmth and heart, that also happens to include superpowers. Probably wouldn't hurt to embrace a 60s retrofuture aesthetic either.

[drawkcabi]

They should have kept John Kracyzy... John Kracinski... Jim Halpert as Reed Richards and have Pedro Pascal as Dr. Doom. 

They should have tried to sign up Meryl Streep as the original Madame Web, not as the main character in her own movie but as a supporting character that enigmatically reveals more of what the multiverse is and what's been going on in the Loki series to our more singular verse characters.

[BigFatCoward]

Can anyone think of anything ever that started good, fucked up and got shit then brought it back? 

I can't, once you are screwed you are screwed, they might make good films/TV shows again, but they have burnt their bridges as far as the box office is concerned. 

[polishgenius]

2 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Can anyone think of anything ever that started good, fucked up and got shit then brought it back? 

I can't, once you are screwed you are screwed, they might make good films/TV shows again, but they have burnt their bridges as far as the box office is concerned. 

 

Doctor Who. Admittedly the biggest tanking saw it break off for two decades.

Community had the gas leak.

 

 

But maybe the most useful example is comics themselves - both DC and Marvel have had multiple ups and downs in their comic quality.

[Heartofice]

31 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Can anyone think of anything ever that started good, fucked up and got shit then brought it back? 

I can't, once you are screwed you are screwed, they might make good films/TV shows again, but they have burnt their bridges as far as the box office is concerned. 

A lot of shows and movies just kind of cut their losses when audiences drop, move on to something else. Not sure Marvel can really afford to do that, it won't look very good if they just take a hiatus for 5 years. 

Since Disney Marvel's problem has largely been one of overreach and over expansion, it does seem possible to go back to basics a bit and go for a quality not quantity approach. Spider-man proves people are still motivated to go watch superhero movies, they just want them to be good.

[sifth]

I wonder if the rumors that Majors is actually fired, but not made public yet, are true. It would be a shame if they dropped the Kang plot, completely.

On a side note, are we led to believe that all of universes were being destroyed at the end of Loki, because the other Kang variants were starting their war against each other again? If so, it makes the ending to Ant Man 3, make even less sense, when we see all of them getting along with each other.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

A lot of shows and movies just kind of cut their losses when audiences drop, move on to something else. Not sure Marvel can really afford to do that, it won't look very good if they just take a hiatus for 5 years. 

Since Disney Marvel's problem has largely been one of overreach and over expansion, it does seem possible to go back to basics a bit and go for a quality not quantity approach. Spider-man proves people are still motivated to go watch superhero movies, they just want them to be good.

At least they're starting to see the way the tides are shifting and creating rated R movies and possibly tv shows. They're seeing how popular shows like The Boys, Gen V and Invincible are becoming and are starting to realize they can no longer afford to play it safe. I hope they actually commit to making their shows as violent, over the top and funny, like the ones I listed.

Too many MCU films feel the same and part of the problem is Marvel not understand how to show restraint. For example Shang Chi and Black Widow, would have been great, had they focused on them being street level heroes, but for no reason they gave us over the top endings, that didn't make sense. If they didn't giving their street level heroes endings that make more sense in a GotG or Thor film, they would have been better movies and more memorable, IMO.

[IlyaP]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

For example Shang Chi and Black Widow, would have been great, had they focused on them being street level heroes, but for no reason they gave us over the top endings, that didn't make sense.

Ah, the classic MCU third act CGI clusterfuck. I don't know how it's been allowed to continue on for so long, when it's *obviously* a hindrance and an issue. And yet, persist it does.

[Rhom]

Shang Chi is the one that gets me. You’ve got a decent ish Kung Fu flick going here. You’ve got one of the oldest conflicts in human drama queued up in a father-son face off.  So you throw in a CGI army and a giant dragon?!!? 

And yes, Black Widow was another one… had a chance to do an MCU Borne Identity and then instead did… whatever that was.

The worst part of all of it is that the meta story in She Hulk shows you they are aware of the problem… and then do it anyway.

[Heartofice]

Totally agree on Shang Chi, you could have combined awesome kick ass kung fu with superpowers to really make everything hit hard, and just follow those genre tropes through to the end. But nope, it had to be a big old fantasy bollocks instead.

Also, Dr Strange 2, they get Sam Raimi, and outside of one or two scenes where you see some of his horror touches, the movie is basically cookie cutter Marvel. All the talk when this movie was starting to be made was this was the MCU horror, but it was diluted so much you could barely feel it. Same with Dr Strange 1, it hinted at the psychedelic Ditko styling, but it was never anything more than window dressing. 

You have to wonder if Marvel will ever be brave enough to make a movie that doesn't rigidly stick to the formula.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Shang Chi is the one that gets me. You’ve got a decent ish Kung Fu flick going here. You’ve got one of the oldest conflicts in human drama queued up in a father-son face off.  So you throw in a CGI army and a giant dragon?!!? 

And yes, Black Widow was another one… had a chance to do an MCU Borne Identity and then instead did… whatever that was.

The worst part of all of it is that the meta story in She Hulk shows you they are aware of the problem… and then do it anyway.

By far my favorite scene in Shang Chi, is when the father takes the young Shang Chi with him to avenge his wife. Everything about that scene is great and amazing. I often think of the movie we could of gotten if we had more moments like that, with no over the top CGI dragon trash.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Also, Dr Strange 2, they get Sam Raimi, and outside of one or two scenes where you see some of his horror touches, the movie is basically cookie cutter Marvel. All the talk when this movie was starting to be made was this was the MCU horror, but it was diluted so much you could barely feel it. Same with Dr Strange 1, it hinted at the psychedelic Ditko styling, but it was never anything more than window dressing. 

 

For me Dr. Strange 2 suffers from a villain problem. Don't get me wrong, I love Wanda in that film, but the problem is they make her too evil and too irredeemable. Part of me wonders if the film would have been better if evil Strange was the main antagonist, with him slowly corrupting Wanda, with promises of giving Wanda her children back if he helps her. The movie could end, with Wanda realizing the evil Strange's promises are false and standing up to him.