Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Bael's Bastard]

Palestinians in the WB and Gaza overwhelmingly support Hamas' Oct 7 terrorist attack and also support a Palestinian state "from the river to the sea" (in other words, the destruction of Israel and Jewish self-determination).

THESE are the exact sort of attitudes that caused the Nakba [*before* Jews had a military advantage] rather than establishment of Arab Palestine, the refusal to share which led to their attempt (failed) to prevent the establishment of even a Jewish state that would have been nearly 2/3 desert.

https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

Edited November 23, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Kalbear]

38 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Palestinians in the WB and Gaza overwhelmingly support Hamas' Oct 7 terrorist attack and also support a Palestinian state "from the river to the sea" (in other words, the destruction of Israel and Jewish self-determination).

THESE are the exact sort of attitudes that caused the Nakba [*before* Jews had a military advantage] rather than establishment of Arab Palestine, the refusal to share which led to their attempt (failed) to prevent the establishment of even a Jewish state that would have been nearly 2/3 desert.

https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

I'm sure killing more Palestinians will change their mind

[Bael's Bastard]

They've had their minds made for a century.

[karaddin]

So what's your solution to that? Trying to change their minds or something else? Maybe give some details by what something else could be.

[Kalbear]

39 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

They've had their minds made for a century.

And remember folks, this is an example of the liberal wing of Israel's polity. When folks hope that said liberal wing takes control of Israel's government this is a prime reason why I remain skeptical that there will be any change for Palestinians that is good.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And remember folks, this is an example of the liberal wing of Israel's polity. When folks hope that said liberal wing takes control of Israel's government this is a prime reason why I remain skeptical that there will be any change for Palestinians that is good.

And what's the liberal wing of Palestinian policy? A polite end to Israel as a Jewish state at best? 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

And what's the liberal wing of Palestinian policy? A polite end to Israel as a Jewish state at best? 

I don't understand how this is a rebuttal. 

You have been repeatedly saying that for the future to unfold well it requires Palestinian leadership that will do something (which to be frank is something to be skeptical of) AND Netanyahu to be replaced with a more sensible, liberal leader. My point is that that replacement is likely to be as hostile to any Palestinian statehood or even basic rights as Netanyahu has been, or possibly even worse. One possible outcome of this is concluding that containment was a bad choice because if didn't go far enough.

And the obvious conclusion from believing that Palestinians cannot change their mind and haven't in 100 years is that diplomacy is not an option at any point. So tell me - what does the future look like for Israel if there is no possible way or reason to negotiate with any Palestinians? What policies would you put forward to deal with that? I can tell you it won't be statehood - why would you ever give a nation to a people that you believe will never change and will always want to kill you?

In general and historically, leadership who believe that sort of thing of other people tend to go for far more extreme measures.

[Bael's Bastard]

19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And remember folks, this is an example of the liberal wing of Israel's polity. When folks hope that said liberal wing takes control of Israel's government this is a prime reason why I remain skeptical that there will be any change for Palestinians that is good.

People like you have never done or given anything to make peace between Jews and Palestinians. Nothing. Ever. I come from people that accepted a two state solution before 47, that supported a Palestinian state and continued pushing for peace while our families and friends were being murdered in buses and restaurants by Palestinians that were literally devoted to blowing up the peace process in the 90s (Hamas), because we believed Palestinian leaders (the PLO) and those they represented really wanted a state and peace. Once again, our faith in that was blown to pieces by the second intifada, election of Hamas, etc. Just because we are woke to the reality of Palestinian rejectionism doesn't mean we have any less desire for peace and a Palestinian state. But we will not have faith in the existence of a desire for peace again until we actually see it.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Kalbear]

33 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

People like you have never done or given anything to make peace between Jews and Palestinians. Nothing. Ever. I come from people that accepted a two state solution before 47, that supported a Palestinian state and continued pushing for peace while our families and friends were being murdered in buses and restaurants by Palestinians that were literally devoted to blowing up the peace process in the 90s (Hamas), because we believed Palestinian leaders (the PLO) and those they represented really wanted a state and peace. Once again, our faith in that was blown to pieces by the second intifada, election of Hamas, etc. Just because we are woke to the reality of Palestinian rejectionism doesn't mean we have any less desire for peace and a Palestinian state. But we will not have faith in the existence of a desire for peace again until we actually see it.

This is a real weird way to frame it, but okay! As karradin asked before - so what now? Do you honestly believe that blowing up more Palestinians is going to make them have a desire for peace?

Did Palestinians blowing up your people make you desire peace more or less?

What is your actual proposal beyond slandering random strangers on the internet? And bonus points - please do show how telling people who oppose civilian deaths in Gaza are equivalent to nazis does some good for the Israel and Palestine peace process.

ETA - all that and at 4 AM Israel time too! 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Kalbear

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't understand how this is a rebuttal. 

You have been repeatedly saying that for the future to unfold well it requires Palestinian leadership that will do something (which to be frank is something to be skeptical of) AND Netanyahu to be replaced with a more sensible, liberal leader. My point is that that replacement is likely to be as hostile to any Palestinian statehood or even basic rights as Netanyahu has been, or possibly even worse. One possible outcome of this is concluding that containment was a bad choice because if didn't go far enough.

I don't think that's a guarantee. It will take a generation probably for Israeli politics to shift enough to the middle for a reasonable peace process to happen, but in the short term I wouldn't assume things are going to be worse once Netanyahu gets the boot.  

Quote

And the obvious conclusion from believing that Palestinians cannot change their mind and haven't in 100 years is that diplomacy is not an option at any point. So tell me - what does the future look like for Israel if there is no possible way or reason to negotiate with any Palestinians? What policies would you put forward to deal with that? I can tell you it won't be statehood - why would you ever give a nation to a people that you believe will never change and will always want to kill you?

And likewise, it will take a generational change to probably get new Palestinian leadership in place that can move more to the middle and work out a deal. The only viable solution right now is a new state for them, but right now the conditions are just too fucked for that to happen. 

In the meantime the best thing to probably hope for is to get both sides to cool theirs once this war ends. I just worry it won't happen quickly. The drip, drip, drop of releasing hostages just leaves the wound open to fester. 

[karaddin]

@Bael's Bastard

Then again I'm asking - where do you go from there? I'm not going to sit here and tell you all that shit didn't happen, it did and it was horrible and I'm sorry your country, your family and your people have had to deal with that. Its fucked. This latest attack, the worst terrorist attack on the modern state of Israel in its existence, happened under the current status quo so I think its fair to say the current status quo isn't working. To my mind you can

1. Hope this colossal failing of the intelligence services/security state was a one off, continue the status quo
2. Increase effects to change the minds of the people that given support to Hamas (whether it be active support or passive cover), which is what I think should be attempted but I freely concede I have no authority or expertise - I'm just a random on the internet spouting off guided by my own moral beliefs
3. Engage Hamas directly where possible and try to end their current existence as a threat, but prioritize avoiding civilian casualties
4. Attempt to arrest Hamas wherever possible and put them through fair trials, this could be seen as attempting to diminish them by positioning them as criminals rather than elevating them to a quasi-peer government
5. Obliterate every location suspected to be associated with Hamas, heavily via air strikes, with limited concern for civilian casualties and guarantee that you end their current military capabilities
6. Remove the Gazan population from Gaza/Israel

Some of these can be done together, eg 1+3+4, 1+5, 2+3+4. But some are very much mutually exclusive. I think the current approach of the IDF would be argued by the people in this thread as either 1+3, 1+5 or just 5. What many of us fear the right wing hardliners want to make happen is 6. I don't think anyone in this thread wants 6, but it sounds like the unspoken conclusion of the thought "they havent changed their mind for 100 years and they're not going to". Perhaps that's just telling on myself that its the way I'd think if I thought the situation couldn't be changed.

I'm sure there are other options I'm not thinking of, and you're under no obligation to answer my questions but if you do want to see other things done that I haven't thought of, please point them out. I am very open to options that see the end of Hamas in the here and now without creating terrorists for the future and large scale civilian deaths, but the current approach is both morally unsound and doomed to failure in my admittedly limited opinion.

[karaddin]

11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And likewise, it will take a generational change to probably get new Palestinian leadership in place that can move more to the middle and work out a deal.

No argument with you that its going to take time and work before this is likely to even be a possibility.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And likewise, it will take a generational change to probably get new Palestinian leadership in place that can move more to the middle and work out a deal.

yeah and israel probably fucked that up for generations, millions of kids growing with incredible trauma will for sure breed more "terrorists", but this is all within israel policies for decades (including financing hamas), reep what you sow and such. mayve stoping advocating for genocide (and doing it of course) is a good start. like you keep saying that palestinians whant to kill every jew, but israel is actually doing it, and been doing it, killing and displacing everyone.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

No argument with you that its going to take time and work before this is likely to even be a possibility.

And a key problem is there's enough people on both sides willing to fuck progress up so the clock on progress is probably going to be constantly restarting.

16 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

yeah and israel probably fucked that up for generations, millions of kids growing with incredible trauma will for sure breed more "terrorists", but this is all within israel policies for decades (including financing hamas), reep what you sow and such. mayve stoping advocating for genocide (and doing it of course) is a good start. like you keep saying that palestinians whant to kill every jew, but israel is actually doing it, and been doing it, killing and displacing everyone.

Both Israel and Hamas have fucked it up for the foreseeable future, but it's getting tiresome that the latter is held to a way lower standard despite them being the ones who started all of this and openly call for genocide much more directly and consistently and have for decades. 

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Both Israel and Hamas have fucked it up for the foreseeable future, but it's getting tiresome that the latter is held to a way lower standard despite them being the ones who started all of this

Yeah, this entire tragedy has just been the worst people on both sides giving each other exactly what they, and only they, want while ruining everything for everyone else. 

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And a key problem is there's enough people on both sides willing to fuck progress up so the clock on progress is probably going to be constantly restarting.

Both Israel and Hamas have fucked it up for the foreseeable future, but it's getting tiresome that the latter is held to a way lower standard despite them being the ones who started all of this and openly call for genocide much more directly and consistently and have for decades. 

I for one disagree that the Palestinians or Hamas "started all of this" This conflict started with the settler colonial project (as acknolwedged by people like Herzl) that was the creation of the state of Israel. The reality is that while most Israelis are innocent, they are living on stolen land, the creation of the state of Israel was predicated on an act of mass ethnic cleansing and then 75 years of apartheid, which requires violence to maintain. There has not been a single day since 1948 that Palestinians have known peace from their colonizers.

Edited November 23, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Ran]

Then there are Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza also living on land stolen from the Jews they ethnically cleansed in 1948. 

"The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False" is a good read.

[Heartofice]

35 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I for one disagree that the Palestinians or Hamas "started all of this" This conflict started with the settler colonial project (as acknolwedged by people like Herzl) that was the creation of the state of Israel. The reality is that while most Israelis are innocent, they are living on stolen land, the creation of the state of Israel was predicated on an act of mass ethnic cleansing and then 75 years of apartheid, which requires violence to maintain. There has not been a single day since 1948 that Palestinians have known peace from their colonizers.

Wow, talk about a narrow, ahistorical viewpoint. Problem is, this is exactly how very many people see what is going on. It’s scary. 

[GrimTuesday]

22 minutes ago, Ran said:

Then there are Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza also living on land stolen from the Jews they ethnically cleansed in 1948. 

"The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False" is a good read.

Citing the 20000 Jews who were forced out of their homes by Arab militias is a pathetic attempt to draw some kind of moral equivalence.

That article is interesting in so far as it is an example of how to dress up right wing Israeli propaganda with a little teeny tiny bit of acknowledgement of the Palestinian plight so as to make yourself seem more reasonable while still white washing Israel's crimes and justifying those that can't be white washed.

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Citing the 20000 Jews who were forced out of their homes by Arab militias is a pathetic attempt to draw some kind of moral equivalence.

I bow to your greater expertise in pathetic argumentation. 

Israel isn't going anywhere, is the thing, so no amount of hand-wringing over 1948 will fix anything. Every repetition of "settler-colonialism" is a naked expectation that the useful idiots who witlessly repeat "From the river to the sea" will one day abet the ethnic cleansing of Greater Palestine.

It will never happen. The sooner the Palestinians accept this fact, the better for them.