Underrated politicians and rulers

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Who amongst the lords, ladies, kings, queens, hands of the King, maesters and other various politicians and players of the game of thrones do you think aren't recognised and respected as much as they should be or should have been in spite of their undeniable political and ruling talents and record ? 

Who would you say are underrated politicians, rulers and players of the game in ASOIAF ?

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

If we are talking in-universe, then Wyman Manderly is on the top of the list for me. The characters mostly underestimate his abilities due to his physical appearance and believe him to be a coward. But we readers know otherwise.

If we are talking within the fandom, I'd nominate Mace Tyrell. Do I believe him to be a secret genius or brilliant politician ? No absolutely not, but I do think he deserves more credit than people give him. I don't think everything he does/wants comes from Olenna. By her own admition, it is Mace's idea to push for having an alliance with the iron throne. She is only there to guide things along for the betterment of the family when she can (which admitely is more than most Dowager Ladies we've met in the series). And since she returned for Highgarden in AFFC, her influence in Mace's plans is greatly diminished now. She might influence her grandsons's actions against the ironborn, however. We will see.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Sam Tarly. He managed to get his preferred candidate elected Lord Commander in less than a week, and all while he was still a teenager.

[KingAerys_II]

The widow lover, Lord Wyl, a monster, but he defeated Orys army by using cunning methods, then he was a le to defend himself from Balerion wrath by hiding in tunnels.

During the dragon wroth he invaded the Reach and the Stormlands to gain wealth and supplies, he made an alliance with Myrish pirates to move around the coast.

 

[James Steller]

Viserys II, if we’re going by in-universe opinions. 

[frenin]

Visenya Targaryen, Maegor's reign really died with her and before that she was a much more effective politician than her siblings.

[Alester Florent]

Are we going by in-world characters, or by readers?

If readers, then my first pick will be controversial (but then I guess that's the point): Robert. The way he's talked about by many round here, it seems taken for granted that he was not only one of the worst kings in Westerosi history, but also barely one up from Gregor Clegane in his personal evil and malevolence, to the point that I've recently seen a theory floating around that Lyanna's running off with Rhaegar was triggered by Robert raping or trying to rape her because that's just the kind of guy he was.

I disagree. Robert managed to pull off the classic combo of being loved and feared in a way which relatively few Westerosi kings have, and it's clear from what came after him that this wasn't as easy as it might have looked. The only other ruler we see really pull it off is Dany, and her regime is much more precarious than Robert's ever was. As a king, what mistakes did Robert make? He overspent, sure, but the Throne didn't seem to be struggling to make the repayments so long as the realm was at peace (a peace he maintained). Did the Lannisters become too powerful? Debatable; they certainly had influence, but their dominance over government was lesser than we sometimes assume, and had Ned not fumbled the pass, shutting them out of government after Robert's death should have been relatively easy. Tywin, the supposedly overmighty puppetmaster, doesn't dare openly raise his banners until after he knows Robert is dead. To a great extent, it does seem that it was Robert holding the kingdom together, more than any other factor.

And in his personal life, he was no saint, to be sure, but I think the mistake is often made to take everything Cersei says about him at face value (since she talks about him more in her PoVs than almost any other character), accepting her veredict on him, while ignoring everyone else's opinions or the reality of what we know (including what we know about the reliability of Cersei's internal monologues and judgements).

As a king, I'd give Robert a solid 6/10 at minimum, perhaps edging up to a 7/10 or even an 8/10 in his early years (prior to the Greyjoy rebellion and probably for some time afterwards). We also have to remember that the Robert we meet in AGoT is not the same Robert who took the throne. It's clear that by the time we meet him, he has sunk into the depths of depression and has changed not only physically but mentally, to the extent that his BFF Ned struggles to recognise him at times, but it's equally clear that that didn't overtake his more positive qualities until he'd already been on the throne for several years.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Godric Borrell

[Hugorfonics]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:50 PM, Alester Florent said:

And in his personal life, he was no saint, to be sure, but I think the mistake is often made to take everything Cersei says about him at face value (since she talks about him more in her PoVs than almost any other character), accepting her veredict on him, while ignoring everyone else's opinions or the reality of what we know (including what we know about the reliability of Cersei's internal monologues and judgements).

 Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but we see him beat her.  I really never understood the need to whitewash Robert's domestic violence. 

Speaking of Cerse, I gotta say, I don't think she's super incompetent. For example,  although both experienced hiccups, I believe her plan involving the faith and her navy will both kinda work out. More so then it has for her already at least. 

Also, shout out to Ramsay for turning the whole series into about him and Lysa for managing these crazed warriors while the rest of the realm was up in arms.

[Lord Lannister]

Mace Tyrell for me. I always believed the bumbling oaf act was just that, an act.

He's consistently managed to land on his feet during the Rebellion and the War of Five Kings. He manuvered himself into a postion during the Rebellion where sure he took a side, but wasn't getting his lands or armies destroyed in the war by tying himself down besieging Storm's End. If the royalists won the war he woud've been due his reward, as it happened he just dipped his banners and called it a day taking fewer losses than any other great house in that war. 

He managed more savy manuvering during the War of the Five Kings. He's managed to hedge his bets quite well and moving Margaery from being engaged to Renly to Joffrey to Tommen was quite genuius. Sure his forces and lands seem to be in the direct line of fire more often during this war, but the Tyrells are playing the game to win and be on top and are managing to bounce back from every reversal they're dealt so far. As the books end, they're in virtual control of King's Landing and the Council now that Kevan is dead and Cersei disgraced. All that needs to happen is Tommen be handed a piece of paper to seal naming Mace Regent and Hand. 

Sure a lot of people dismiss his role in Tyrell success by saying it was all Olenna. But at the end of the day a good ruler is going to listen to good advice and act on it. If he was truly an oaf, he'd just dismiss Olenna's advice saying he wasn't going to listen to some woman or something. 

 

[Mad King Bolton]

22 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 Not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand, but we see him beat her.  I really never understood the need to whitewash Robert's domestic violence. 

 

well, we see him SLAP her (I'd say there's a difference to BEATING her), but it's Cersei...y'know, most evil witch in the series...so...give him a pass?

seriously though, it's not okay for either spouse to physically hit one another, but nor is it okay to go beyond any limit in your words and not expect something coming.  She wanted her way and knew how to get it and was willing to egg him to the point of a slap.  She knew he'd regret it and give her what she wanted.  She's a manipulator grand master.

[Daena the Defiant]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:57 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Who amongst the lords, ladies, kings, queens, hands of the King, maesters and other various politicians and players of the game of thrones do you think aren't recognised and respected as much as they should be or should have been in spite of their undeniable political and ruling talents and record ? 

Who would you say are underrated politicians, rulers and players of the game in ASOIAF ?

Here's a controversial opinion:  For her strict policy of neutrality and non-confrontation, Lysa Arryn as Lady Regent did her subjects a solid by keeping the Vale out of the Wot5K.  Yes, yes, she was a deeply disturbed woman, and she made bad choices regarding her own life, but she spared the people of the Vale a lot of strife.  The life of a cotholder or tradesman in the Vale is definitely more secure than say, a Riverlander. 

Edited January 8 by Daena the Defiant

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

well, we see him SLAP her (I'd say there's a difference to BEATING her), but it's Cersei...y'know, most evil witch in the series...so...give him a pass?

seriously though, it's not okay for either spouse to physically hit one another, but nor is it okay to go beyond any limit in your words and not expect something coming.  She wanted her way and knew how to get it and was willing to egg him to the point of a slap.  She knew he'd regret it and give her what she wanted.  She's a manipulator grand master.

Oh nice! So we've gone from doubting the memory of the victims to straight,  uppity bitch was asking for it. 

It's great to see how far we've come since the middle ages

[frenin]

On 1/4/2024 at 3:22 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Mace Tyrell for me. I always believed the bumbling oaf act was just that, an act.

There is no "bumbling oaf act", Mace is vain and pompous because he has 4 great children.

But he is self assured and cocky and although he bites more than he can chew, he's competent enough.

 

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's great to see how far we've come since the middle ages

Did you ever had a doubt?

 

 

[TheKnightOfTheNorth]

On 1/2/2024 at 4:27 PM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Who would you say are underrated politicians, rulers and players of the game in ASOIAF ?

Edmure Tully!

-He cared for the smallfolk and sheltered them within Riverrun. (It was not wise but considerate of him)

-Actually he was the only one to defeat Tywin on the battlefield during the battle of Stone Mill.

The Blackfish and Robb Stark scorned him for that battle eventhough he was not given any specific command of not engaging the Lannister host and he knew nothing of their plan in the west.

-Despite his unwillingness he agreed to marry his vassal's daughter to sway lord Walder Frey for the insult Robb Stark had given him.

-He gave up himself but not his uncle in spite of the danger he knew he might face. 

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, TheKnightOfTheNorth said:

Edmure Tully!

-He cared for the smallfolk and sheltered them within Riverrun. (It was not wise but considerate of him)

-Actually he was the only one to defeat Tywin on the battlefield during the battle of Stone Mill.

The Blackfish and Robb Stark scorned him for that battle eventhough he was not given any specific command of not engaging the Lannister host and he knew nothing of their plan in the west.

-Despite his unwillingness he agreed to marry his vassal's daughter to sway lord Walder Frey for the insult Robb Stark had given him.

-He gave up himself but not his uncle in spite of the danger he knew he might face. 

I agree with that.

Even if Mace is more intelligent than we give him credit for, he’s quite willing to starve people to death to pursue his ambitions.

Edmure, OTOH, is a decent man, and a good lord.

[Garrettcz]

On 1/2/2024 at 8:22 AM, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

If we are talking in-universe, then Wyman Manderly is on the top of the list for me. The characters mostly underestimate his abilities due to his physical appearance and believe him to be a coward. But we readers know otherwise.

Absolutely. He pulls off the act so well and has a lot of plans in motion that his opponents seem to have no inkling of. 

[Mad King Bolton]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:38 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Oh nice! So we've gone from doubting the memory of the victims to straight,  uppity bitch was asking for it. 

It's great to see how far we've come since the middle ages

I’m just saying we’re talking about the Middle Ages. And we are talking about Cersei. Yes Robert was abusive in that moment. The uppity bitch WAS asking for it, she baited him knowing she’d get a slap and used it to get heat she wanted. Robert was no monster, and not cool, but he was a meathead. She was worse. Her instigations and plans were intentional, his were reactive. You tell me which is worse or more dangerous.

[astarkchoice]

13 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

I’m just saying we’re talking about the Middle Ages. And we are talking about Cersei. Yes Robert was abusive in that moment. The uppity bitch WAS asking for it, she baited him knowing she’d get a slap and used it to get heat she wanted. Robert was no monster, and not cool, but he was a meathead. She was worse. Her instigations and plans were intentional, his were reactive. You tell me which is worse or more dangerous.

Id say the classic bill burr comedy sketch applies about hitting women. You should never hit a woman ......BUT no one should be up on their high horse saying theres NEVER  a good reason to hit one! 

As he wisely points out even hockey has penalties for instigating!

 

We cant really judge robert  harshly as this is a time when beating wives, sons , servants  and daughters would be common place. Now obviously theres a huge dif in the sort of scumbag whod beat a lady daily just to feel good (boltons for sure)  and and a parent giving a naughty kid a hard smack!

In this case we know cersei has said the most horrible shit to robert , threatening his innocent bastards with death if he brings them to court ,defending joffery as he displays signs of drifting into being an evil scumbag mutilating  innocent animals. Probably daily  private verbal abuse and berating/belittling  him til he needs to escape to his whores and drink ! the fact he owes their family money and is no longer in any kind of  physical shape probably makes for easy targets.

In thisncase we know she opens with some transparent  b.s about ned visting whores , so false it that its insulting...... then moves to berate his office and manhood ! It sorta hints at the sort of daily toxic spill that she directs his way....now agaim he shouldnt have hit her and openly acknowledges it but we have to admit it does look at best a toxic marriage and worst robert is also being abused,.mental/verbal.abuse can be just as damaging as physical .......and i think we can lrobably see cersei breaking him down verbaly probably happens wayyy  more.often than him hitting her

 

On reflection her abusive nature is probably why he venerates an image of lyanna that never  was of a sweet wife hed never argue with

Edited January 26 by astarkchoice

[Mad King Bolton]

Much better stated than my attempt.