Crixus Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 5 minutes ago, straits said: Just check the link again, maybe it's my browser or app, but it looks like an advertizing channel when I access it. That's odd. I've replaced it in the earlier post, hope it works now. https://youtu.be/Bwy-Rf15UIs?si=CziPeemDd5VHbTQ0 straits 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 @Crixus I know about Deir Yassin, it was a horrific tragedy. There were many war crimes committed by Zionist groups, but this happens in wars unfortunately, you can't control what all the soldiers do. And it doesn't change the fact that surrounding Arab nations started the war by resolving to destroy the newly created Israel. Benny Morris revealed a lot of the war crimes committed by the Zionists. There's a good interview with him here: The founding of Israel was chaotic and everyone will have different narratives on what happened. The documentary you pasted acts as if 1948 was the beginning of everything though and ignores all the stuff that happened before that. Arabs had attempted to massacre Jews as well, such as the Hebron massacre. I don't think it's some big mystery why many Jews inflicted horrors on the Palestinians despite having suffered horrors themselves. You see this pattern often in human nature. Abused children often grow up to become abusers. Zorral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 48 minutes ago, Darryk said: but this happens in wars unfortunately this statment does so much heavy lifting, i wonder if you apply this thinking to everything Larry of the Lawn, TrueMetis, Rippounet and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said: this statment does so much heavy lifting, i wonder if you apply this thinking to everything Is the statement untrue? I didn't say I like it. And yeah, I do apply it to everything. The British bombed the shit out of Munich during World War II. Just realised that will be taken out of context. I used to Munich example to show that both sides do bad things during war, including the side that is defending. I'm not referring to the bombing of Gaza at all which I would never defend. Edited January 11 by Darryk Tears of Lys 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Israel officials support Gaza destruction, court hears Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983 Quote .... Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, a lawyer for the High Court of South Africa, told the ICJ Israel's "genocidal intent" was evident "from the way in which this military attack is being conducted". "The intent to destroy Gaza has been nurtured at the highest level of state," he said. "Every day there is mounting, irreparable loss of life, property, dignity, and humanity for the Palestinian people," Adila Hassim, also representing South Africa, told the court. "Nothing will stop the suffering, except an order from this court." In its evidence submitted before the hearing, South Africa said Israel's actions were "intended to bring about the destruction of a substantial part of the Palestinian national, racial and ethnical group". .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) Can anyone take a guess what Fetterman is response to the ANC lead South African case against Israel at the ICJ at Bipartisan luncheon : Quote “But they couldn’t do it. And now let’s also talk about that. Now we’re talking about genocide. And now South Africa is now bringing that kind of a trial. Maybe South Africa, maybe ought to sit this one out where they’re talking about criticizing, given the history there. Sit it out,” Fetterman added to applause. I do not know. If he is talking about South Africa since the ANC had the only thing comes to mind is related to white farmers which Trump brought up. If that is, than his rhetoric about the border has some darker tones for me. If it is anything related prior to that during the mostly U.S and Israeli allied, who helped their atomic program, Aprtheid Era Government, the one the ANC oppose and had support from the Palestinians. That is just great. Note: Any response to first part, please do in U.S politics if it will be related to this thread issue. Edited January 11 by TheKitttenGuard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Might be referring to South Africa still doing business with Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Military action by the United States and UK against the Houthis in Yemen now appears imminent. The British government just hosted an emergency Cabinet meeting, followed by briefings of the Leader of the Opposition and the Shadow Defence Secretary. This usually only happens if military action is about to take place (so if something bizarre happened and an emergency election was called and the opposition won, they would already know WTF is going on and could take over smoothly). British and American assets in the Red Sea are already rumoured to have extensive lists of targets in Yemen to strike, including ammo depots and believed staging grounds for Iranian-supplied weapons. There has been significant resistance to carrying out strikes on Yemen, with British RAF planners on the ground in Saudi Arabia during Saudi's intervention in the Yemen war warning that Saudi Arabia was unable to do significant damage to the Houthi military in several years of combat. Indeed, the Houthis appeared able to weather the onslaught, maintain supply lines to Iran and ended the war with more military equipment and capability than they started. Saudi Arabia also seems uneasy about the prospect of attacking Yemen, worried they might be drawn into any conflict. There is also significant political opposition within both governments on the idea of being seen to directly join military action on the side of Israel, although Israel has so far refrained from retaliating against the Houthis despite some of their drones and missiles almost reaching Israel itself before being shot down. However, the large, deliberate attack on both British and American warships in the Red Sea on Wednesday seems to have changed the tenor of discussion completely. Iran's direct attack on a fuel ship in the Gulf of Oman may have also changed the calculus. What will be interesting is the scale of the attack: a single air strike on a single remote arms dump might not be much of an escalation: a wide-scale attack might trigger a wider conflagration, especially as some Israeli politicians seem almost eager to trigger such a war as an opportunity to cripple Iran for good (doing so without a massive regional conflict costing millions of lives, including possible Iranian ballistic missile strikes on Europe and American bases across the region, would be unlikely, at best). Tears of Lys and Hmmm 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 kissdbyfire, Kyoshi and straits 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 hours ago, Werthead said: However, the large, deliberate attack on both British and American warships in the Red Sea on Wednesday seems to have changed the tenor of discussion completely. Iran's direct attack on a fuel ship in the Gulf of Oman may have also changed the calculus. They disrupted the supply chain of Tesla's giant factory in Germany, so the Huthi just had to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crixus Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 17 hours ago, Darryk said: @Crixus I know about Deir Yassin, it was a horrific tragedy. There were many war crimes committed by Zionist groups, but this happens in wars unfortunately, you can't control what all the soldiers do. And it doesn't change the fact that surrounding Arab nations started the war by resolving to destroy the newly created Israel. Benny Morris revealed a lot of the war crimes committed by the Zionists. There's a good interview with him here: The founding of Israel was chaotic and everyone will have different narratives on what happened. The documentary you pasted acts as if 1948 was the beginning of everything though and ignores all the stuff that happened before that. Arabs had attempted to massacre Jews as well, such as the Hebron massacre. I don't think it's some big mystery why many Jews inflicted horrors on the Palestinians despite having suffered horrors themselves. You see this pattern often in human nature. Abused children often grow up to become abusers. Thanks for sharing this, I'll definitely watch it. I don't think the doc I shared acts like 1948 was 'the beginning', merely that this is the period it covers in detail. And of course, atrocities happened on both sides, just like is usually the case. Darryk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim Fox Cauthon Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 17 hours ago, Zorral said: Israel officials support Gaza destruction, court hears Israel's plan to "destroy" Gaza comes from "the highest level of state", the UN's top court has heard. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67942983 It doesn't matter. There will be people who will absolve Israel of their actions by blaming Hamas for Israel's own choices in how they are choosing to engage in this military conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) I think my country is entitled to bring this case considering what's happening in Gaza, but is also a bunch of hypocrites considering we're aligned with Russia. Edited January 12 by Darryk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 28 minutes ago, Darryk said: I think my country is entitled to bring this case considering what's happening in Gaza, but is also a bunch of hypocrites considering we're aligned with Russia. Hypocrisy might be a phenomenon best reserved for discussion outside of this thread, because it has the potential to derail the conversation. Those who were eager to point out Russia's atrocities since early 2022 are conspicuously silent on how much murder and destruction Israel committed in only a few months. kissdbyfire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) Another nuanced episode of Plain English on the subject of Gaza, Israel, and the Middle East - https://pca.st/episode/7df54bf2-1510-4be9-840d-a7c4cdc378d4 Edited January 12 by Relic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Darryk said: but is also a bunch of hypocrites considering we're aligned with Russia. In all fairness, passing the "have no controversial business partners" bar is not a bar any geopolitically significant country can pass, or want to, to my knowledge. Edited January 12 by Daeron the Daring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Opinion Israel’s war in Gaza isn’t genocide, but is it proportionate? By Fareed Zakaria https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/12/israel-gaza-hamas-genocide-netanyahu-response/ Quote .... The Associated Press reports that according to experts, in roughly two months, Israel caused more destruction in Gaza than the battle for Aleppo in Syria or the razing of Mariupol in Ukraine, and killed more civilians than the United States and its allies did in a three-year campaign against the Islamic State. Proportionally, Israel’s campaign has exceeded the destruction of the Allied bombings of Germany in World War II and, as the University of Chicago’s Robert Pape notes, “is one of the most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history.” .... That by far the majority of Israel's kills of the Gazan Palestinians are women and children, could that alone constitute cleansing? No future generations. Ser Scot A Ellison and Matrim Fox Cauthon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hmmm Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 23 hours ago, Werthead said: Military action by the United States and UK against the Houthis in Yemen now appears imminent. The British government just hosted an emergency Cabinet meeting, followed by briefings of the Leader of the Opposition and the Shadow Defence Secretary. This usually only happens if military action is about to take place (so if something bizarre happened and an emergency election was called and the opposition won, they would already know WTF is going on and could take over smoothly). British and American assets in the Red Sea are already rumoured to have extensive lists of targets in Yemen to strike, including ammo depots and believed staging grounds for Iranian-supplied weapons. There has been significant resistance to carrying out strikes on Yemen, with British RAF planners on the ground in Saudi Arabia during Saudi's intervention in the Yemen war warning that Saudi Arabia was unable to do significant damage to the Houthi military in several years of combat. Indeed, the Houthis appeared able to weather the onslaught, maintain supply lines to Iran and ended the war with more military equipment and capability than they started. Saudi Arabia also seems uneasy about the prospect of attacking Yemen, worried they might be drawn into any conflict. There is also significant political opposition within both governments on the idea of being seen to directly join military action on the side of Israel, although Israel has so far refrained from retaliating against the Houthis despite some of their drones and missiles almost reaching Israel itself before being shot down. However, the large, deliberate attack on both British and American warships in the Red Sea on Wednesday seems to have changed the tenor of discussion completely. Iran's direct attack on a fuel ship in the Gulf of Oman may have also changed the calculus. What will be interesting is the scale of the attack: a single air strike on a single remote arms dump might not be much of an escalation: a wide-scale attack might trigger a wider conflagration, especially as some Israeli politicians seem almost eager to trigger such a war as an opportunity to cripple Iran for good (doing so without a massive regional conflict costing millions of lives, including possible Iranian ballistic missile strikes on Europe and American bases across the region, would be unlikely, at best). Something I have been thinking about regarding Netanyahu is that a larger Middle Eastern war might be his best (or only) bet of saving his coalition and retaining power in the long term. Currently he looks completely screwed by the voters due to them rightly blaming him for the disaster on October 7. It seems unlikely that Israel eventually occupying Gaza will change that view. Especially since the IDF will probably be bogged down fighting at least some level of Hamas insurgency there for a while to come. But if a larger regional war breaks out, and by the end of it Iran's proxies have all been crushed, then Israel's security situation will have improved massively. No more threat of rocket attacks, for example. Would the voters be able to forgive him for October 7 then? It is a very cynical way to look at it of course. But if I was a strategist in Netanyahu's office and was looking for all possible ways to save his government, then maybe? I do not see how else he could possibly achieve that at this point. And Netanyahu does not exactly strike me as an ethical statesman. Edited January 12 by Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 General Giora Eiland, a former head of the Israeli National Security Council, has written: ‘People might ask whether we want the people of Gaza to starve. We do not ... The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave.’ This is still a starvation crime. See below. https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2024/january/starvation-as-a-method-of-warfare Quote .... Save the Children has warned that deaths in Gaza due to starvation and related causes may soon exceed the approximately 22,000 fatalities directly caused by the military onslaught. Families are often going one, two or three days without food. Infectious diseases, which are often the proximate cause of death among malnourished people, are spreading. Nearly 70 per cent of housing is estimated to have been destroyed or damaged. Few people have access to clean drinking water and fewer still to toilets. The risk of outbreaks of waterborne and other infectious diseases is extremely high. If the catastrophe in Gaza continues on its current trajectory, the prediction of mass death from disease, hunger and exposure will come to pass. If humanitarian assistance is provided promptly and at scale, deaths from hunger and disease will stabilise and decline, but they will still take time to return to pre-crisis levels. Even with an immediate cessation of hostilities and delivery of emergency aid, along with efforts to restore water, sanitation and health services, mortality would remain elevated for weeks or months. Even this would constitute a ‘major’ famine, according to the definition of 10,000 or more deaths. A ‘great’ famine, with 100,000 or more excess deaths, may be in prospect if the current level of hostilities and destruction continues. The war crime of starvation is defined in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions. ‘Objects indispensable to survival’ (OIS) include not only food but also water, medicine and shelter. There is no requirement that individuals perish of starvation for the crime to have been committed; it is sufficient for them to have been deprived of OIS. Human Rights Watch and others have concluded that Israel’s actions in Gaza constitute the war crime of starvation. General Giora Eiland, a former head of the Israeli National Security Council, has written: ‘People might ask whether we want the people of Gaza to starve. We do not ... The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave.’ This is still a starvation crime. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) " ... reducing Gaza to a situation in which famine is in prospect is not only a war crime under the Rome Statute, but a crime against humanity." Quote .... Siege warfare is not in itself unlawful, but can become so if it disproportionately and systematically deprives civilians of OIS. The siege of Gaza from 2006 onwards is a controversial case: Israel controlled food, water, medical and electricity supplies almost completely; it was rigorous in deciding what commodities would be permitted into the Strip, while seeking not to fall foul of international humanitarian law. In the words of Dov Weisglass, an adviser to the then Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, ‘the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.’ Over the years, the siege caused severe deprivation. ‘Prior to the current conflict,’ according to UN findings published last month, 64 per cent of households in Gaza Strip were food insecure or vulnerable to food insecurity, with 124,500 young children living in food poverty ... Additionally, before the hostilities began on 7 October, UNRWA reported that over 90 per cent of the water in Gaza had been deemed unfit for human consumption. This is the situation from which Gaza was rapidly reduced to catastrophe. The Israeli government has acted in full knowledge of existing humanitarian conditions and the effects of any actions it chose to take. So, too, has Hamas. but that is not relevant to determining Israel’s responsibility. On 9 October, the minister of defence, Yoav Gallant, said: ‘I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed.’ The tiny amounts of humanitarian assistance subsequently permitted to enter Gaza mitigate neither the force of this statement nor its impact. In terms of the framework elaborated by David Marcus, a law professor at UCLA, this is a prima facie indication of a first-degree ‘famine crime’. Even if Gallant’s statement does not reflect state policy or military strategy, the fact that Israel’s military campaign has continued without any significant alteration of its methods after the humanitarian consequences have become clear means the operation in Gaza is also a second-degree famine crime. Either way, reducing Gaza to a situation in which famine is in prospect is not only a war crime under the Rome Statute, but a crime against humanity. The IPC was developed in 2004. With reference to its procedures and criteria, famines were declared in Somalia in 2011 and South Sudan in 2017. In other cases, including Ethiopia, Nigeria and Yemen, the FRC has identified widespread IPC phase 4 (‘emergency’) conditions and warned of impending famine if immediate humanitarian action were not taken. Famine was not declared in Syria, where the IPC did not collect data. In the historical catalogue of famines and incidents of mass starvation, it is hard to find a close parallel with the situation in Gaza. Few cases combine such a comprehensive siege with such comprehensive destruction of OIS. The absolute numbers of people who die in Gaza will not match those of the calamitous 20th-century famines, because the afflicted population is smaller, yet the proportionate death toll may be comparable. The rigour, scale and speed of the destruction of OIS and enforcement of the siege surpasses any other case of man-made famine in the last 75 years. .... https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article/17/4/699/5721410? Quote ... Bridget Conley and I have identified nine purposes of starvation for the political and military actors that perpetrate it at scale, of which the first five are: extermination or genocide; control through weakening a population; gaining territorial control; flushing out a population; punishment. For the government of Israel, the starvation of Gaza undoubtedly conforms to the last four of these. If some of the statements from senior Israeli politicians are to be taken at face value, and if Israel continues its campaign without respite, after an unequivocal warning of famine, then the case for invoking extermination and genocide may become compelling. Calling responsible actors to account is a key to ending the crime of starvation and Israel is no exception. Edited January 12 by Zorral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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