Your Most Hated ASOIAF theory

[Gilbert Green]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:26 AM, Him of Many Faces said:

For me, it would be any of the A+ B = C theories regarding parentage.

So you oppose R-L=J?

Or only Ashara + Brandon = Cersei; and combos like that.

[Mourning Star]

I hate the theory that Syrio is dead

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

17 hours ago, SeanF said:

Another hated theory.  Catelyn abused Jon.  And, Catelyn is to blame for TWOT5K.

Is that people construing the relationship as related to us as abusive or is that people suggesting that there was abuse that wasn't on the page?

[Mourning Star]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:08 PM, sifth said:

A related one is that the Three Eyed Crow isn’t Blood Raven

I hate the theory that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow, despite having been asked point blank in the books and him not even understanding the question

[kissdbyfire]

 

 

19 hours ago, sifth said:

Honestly I think the best theory for Cold Hands, is he's just a body Bloodraven wargs into, when needing to do stuff outside the cave. I much rather that, than him simply being a "good wight".

But Coldhands isn't a wight. He's definitely an undead, but at the same time, he's nothing like the ice wights we've seen. So something happened there, either during the wightification process that made it not take, as it were, for whatever reason, or he was fully wightified and the process was reversed somehow but only partially; and only partially b/c you cannot bring someone back from death - not truly, not really. 

Valar Morghulis.

18 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

There's a hated theory out there that all of the "good wights" are bodies that BR hops into.

[kissdbyfire]

18 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Well, Beric, LSH, Cold Hands... the rest are all hated theories

Ice wights VS fire wights

[Him of Many Faces]

50 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

So you oppose R-L=J?

Or only Ashara + Brandon = Cersei; and combos like that.

Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is a matter of reading comprehension to me. I think the fandom should have long time ago (like decades ago) accepted that as a stone carved fact and moved on from bringing up alternatives. 

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Him of Many Faces said:

Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is a matter of reading comprehension to me. I think the fandom should have long time ago (like decades ago) accepted that as a stone carved fact and moved on from bringing up alternatives. 

Most fans have, but you still come across pockets of resistance, so to speak. Some genuinely don't buy it/don't see it, like my mum. To be fair, she loves the books but is a casual reader; she's certain Jon is the son of Lyanna and Robert!  And no matter how many times I try to explain why it doesn't work, all I get from her is a dismissive waving of the hand as she walks away. And this has been going on since she first read the books some 15 years ago or so.

But there's another group of fans as well... readers who really, really want to solve something that hasn't been solved yet- in ~ 30 years! And they really want to be the one person who found that one mysterious clue that no one has seen or understood in all this time. And the issue here is, the mysteries that haven't been solved yet remain mysteries b/c Martin hasn't provided the clues needed to solve them, and not because no one has been able to find said clues apart from the one reader. It's special snowflake syndrome and thankfully this latter group is much smaller than the former.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I hate the theory that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow, despite having been asked point blank in the books and him not even understanding the question

Bran literally tells us Bloodraven turns into a three eyed crow, when training him in his dreams, in the very next chapter. My guess is Bloodraven is unaware that he appears as a crow in Brans dream. Much like Bran was unaware that he appeared as a winged wolf, in Jojen's dream.

It really has been too long since the last book, if this is something people don't understand.

Edited January 12 by sifth

[Willam Stark]

1 hour ago, Him of Many Faces said:

Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is a matter of reading comprehension to me. I think the fandom should have long time ago (like decades ago) accepted that as a stone carved fact and moved on from bringing up alternatives. 

Most of the fandom did, especially after the end of the show.

It's only on this forum that I've seen people questioning Jon's parentage, on other forums it's recognized as an established fact.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Him of Many Faces said:

Jon being Lyanna's and Rhaegar's son is a matter of reading comprehension to me. I think the fandom should have long time ago (like decades ago) accepted that as a stone carved fact and moved on from bringing up alternatives. 

It is a good theory.  I more or less subscribe to it myself.  But it is a theory.

A fan consensus is nothing more than a curious phenomenon.   One that becomes particularly curious when it is motivated to silence dissenting voices.

Why on earth should it bother you that others think differently? 

 

[Gilbert Green]

12 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

It's only on this forum that I've seen people questioning Jon's parentage, on other forums it's recognized as an established fact.

I doubt you've done a scientific survey.  But it does not matter. Unless these other people, on these other forums, have inside information, it is irrational to appeal to what they think.

The books say that Ned is Jon's father; and only the identity of the mother is a mystery.  I'm not saying we can't question the text.  Lot's of decent theories give due consideration to the possibility that the text may mislead at times.

 

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Most fans have, but you still come across pockets of resistance, so to speak. Some genuinely don't buy it/don't see it, like my mum. To be fair, she loves the books but is a casual reader; she's certain Jon is the son of Lyanna and Robert!  And no matter how many times I try to explain why it doesn't work, all I get from her is a dismissive waving of the hand as she walks away. And this has been going on since she first read the books some 15 years ago or so.

But there's another group of fans as well... readers who really, really want to solve something that hasn't been solved yet- in ~ 30 years! And they really want to be the one person who found that one mysterious clue that no one has seen or understood in all this time. And the issue here is, the mysteries that haven't been solved yet remain mysteries b/c Martin hasn't provided the clues needed to solve them, and not because no one has been able to find said clues apart from the one reader. It's special snowflake syndrome and thankfully this latter group is much smaller than the former.

"Pockets of resistance".  You make it sound so political.  And I think the RLJ Truthers and other Strident Theory Bullies really do think that way.  It is all about dominance and submission.

As if new fans should not be allowed enjoy the books for themselves or to think for themselves.  And you want to insult them and call them special snowflake.

You seem to have trouble accepting that others have read the books as well.

 

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I doubt you've done a scientific survey.  But it does not matter. Unless these other people, on these other forums, have inside information, it is irrational to appeal to what they think.

The books say that Ned is Jon's father; and only the identity of the mother is a mystery.  I'm not saying we can't question the text.  Lot's of decent theories give due consideration to the possibility that the text may mislead at times.

 

The thing is, we all have inside information on this one. We know (or at least, it is generally known) that the producers of the Game of Thrones show were asked by GRRM who they thought Jon's parents were, as a condition of getting to make the show. Given that the show was made, they got the answer right. The show went on to establish Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents.

Hence why I think that, even if the text of the books themselves leaves some room for doubt, we as readers, with access to metatextual sources, can be certain beyond reasonable doubt that R+L=J*.

That some people don't accept this and continue to argue the point is annoying largely because it means that arguments that should be settled have to be constantly relitigated, and because those same people use their bogus R+L=/=J theories as platforms for even more silliness. Or, worse, it forms the basis for trolling, as with the Stark haters who'll maintain that Brandon raped Lyanna or something.

 

*Now, it is not impossible that D&D decided to tear things up and deliberately get the answer "wrong" in the final draft, but that seems pretty unlikely: the errors made in the show, which are many, do nevertheless appear to have been at least 90% incompetence, rather than deliberate perversity.

[kissdbyfire]

22 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The thing is, we all have inside information on this one. We know (or at least, it is generally known) that the producers of the Game of Thrones show were asked by GRRM who they thought Jon's parents were, as a condition of getting to make the show. Given that the show was made, they got the answer right. The show went on to establish Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents.

To be perfectly fair, D&D were asked who was Jon’s mother, not his parents.

 

Quote

But back in 2005, screenwriters David Benioff and D.B. Weiss were a pair of untested showrunners who’d fallen in love with George R.R. Martin’s epic series. They pitched themselves to the novelist over a lengthy lunch at Hollywood’s Palm that stretched out into dinner. When they passed his pop quiz — correctly answering “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?”— they won the right to convert the novels into a TV series.

They have  also said that maybe Martin would have let them do it even if their answer was wrong.

Quote

Maybe if we had gotten it wrong, he would have let us do it anyway.

I agree w/ the points you made, and there are many others to be made as well. 

Edited January 13 by kissdbyfire

[LongRider]

I see Beric & LSH as fire wights and Coldhands as an ice wight, nothing earth shattering about this of course.  A while back I put together a look-see at wights and this is what I came up with: 

According to George R. R. Martin, Beric is no longer a living being after his first death; his heart does not beat and blood does not flow through his veins. In Martin's own words, Beric is "a wight animated by fire instead of by ice".[33]

Beric Dondarrion......raised by Thoros....continues to fight for Robert Barathian, with the BWB

Cat Stark/Lady Stoneheart......raised by Beric. LS and Beric became 'wight(s) animated by fire'  both continue the same sort of action as when they died...BD fighting for Robert....LS killing Freys (she killed Jinglebell)

**********

Coldhands......***Coldhands: Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals ... His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk............Bran: They'll kill him.  Leaf: No. They killed him long ago. ***   Dressed in greys and blacks with a black scarf hiding his face, he appears to be a member of the NW.  He refers to Sam as "Brother!" and saves Sam, Gilly and the babe from a wight attack at Whitetree, interestingly in the haunted forest.  If Coldhands was indeed a ranger of the NW, it seems he continues to range.  However, we don't know if Coldhands has his own agency or is controlled by someone else. 

Robert Strong.....mysterious Knight brought in by Qyburn. A giant of man he becomes a King's Gaurd and is Cersei's personal gaurd.  Huge, 8 ft tall, silent, doesn't eat, drink or use privy.   A revenant, believed to be raised by necromancy by Qyburn, who may have used the dead Gregor to raise the mysterious Robert Strong. Like Gregor Clegane he is to be Cersei's champion at the end of her current trial. 

However, while the wights behind the Wall are also ice wights, what their animating force is I cannot say.

Definitions:  wight...animated corpse controlled by an outside entity or force.
 

 Just a few random thoughts.

[Him of Many Faces]

12 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

But it is a theory.

I don't agree. I see it as a solvable mystery in the first book. And it's far more relevant to Ned than it is to Jon. By understanding the blue winter rose dreams and flashbacks, we understand his relationship with Robert on the issue of child murder and why he felt the need to warn Cersei. By understanding that the honorable Ned swallowed his honor and pride and promised to raise Jon as his own (to save a child from murder) we understand why he will lie about the coup in front of the sept of Baelor (to save another child, Sansa, from murder). This is why I dismiss every alternative to Jon's parentage, because they will not align with Ned Stark's character arc in AGoT. 

Edited January 13 by Him of Many Faces
Spelling

[Adaneth]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:26 PM, Him of Many Faces said:

What's that one theory that makes you roll your eyes whenever you see it discussed? What makes you go "I can't believe people are still discussing that, it's been debunked to death"?

For me, it would be any of the A+ B = C theories regarding parentage. 

 

Too many to count, tbh. But the last two I heard made my eyes roll hard.

1. LS will give the last kiss to Rob's wolf's head (?), somehow, and he will be the one to be resurrected. 

2. Bloodraven killed all the Targs because he wanted TPTWP to be from his mother's side.

Now, with regards to Bloodraven, all those Targs deaths are suspicious, for sure. But that he would do that because he wanted TPTWP to be from his mommy's blood? Come on! He may think he knows (or he knows) from which bloodline TPTWP will be coming from, but it's not like Bloodraven can "make" him.

[Adaneth]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:38 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Not so much theories, but every 'What if' post.

• What if Robb had marched south?
• What if Renly had survived?
• What if Tyrion had been a cyborg?
• What if Ned had sideburns?

Cue 10,000 replies. Ugh.

OMG! I hate that and I've heard it so many times with LOTR too, which drives me crazy. lol

"What if...?" Well, we would have a different story. Duh!

Edited January 13 by Adaneth

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Him of Many Faces said:

I don't agree. I see it as a solvable mystery in the first book. And it's far more relevant to Ned than it is to Jon. By understanding the blue winter rose dreams and flashbacks, we understand his relationship with Robert on the issue of child murder and why he felt the need to warn Cersei. By understanding that the honorable Ned swallowed his honor and pride and promised to raise Jon as his own (to save a child from murder) we understand why he will lie about the coup in front of the sept of Baelor (to save another child, Sansa, from murder). This is why I dismiss every alternative to Jon's parentage, because they will not align with Ned Stark's character arc in AGoT. 

Yes, we know Ned's character would cause him to protect children.  One can devise more than one possibility that is consistent with Ned's character.  Because Ned plausibly would have protected any child.  Not just Jon.  And bringing the child home and calling it your own child is not necessarily the best strategy.  It would depend on the features of the child.  So this is in effect a circular argument that starts and ends with the assumption that the child born at the TOJ was Jon.

Again, I think R+L=J is a good theory.  I just don't think other theorists should be forced to shut up and go away.

Also I don't think the standard version of R=L=J is correct.  Jon is probably too old to have been born at the time of the fight at the TOJ.  If he was born to Lyanna and Rhaegar, he was born earlier in the abduction; which also leaves room for the TOJ fight to have occurred later.

There's a reason fans have never been able to come up with a coherent timeline of Robert's Rebellion.  They can't make it fit their fave theory.  And rather than deal with the issue, they employ various stratagems to drive their adversaries off and/or make them shut up.