Dune part 2: the spoilers must flow (Spoilers for the movies)

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

20 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

I just read that Dune 3 is probably going to be a thing. I'm a bit surprised, since apparently Villeneuve wants to write and direct it himself. He must really be into the source material to spent his creative prime years solely on this property  

He's been a fan of the series since he was 14 and has basically wanted to make Dune movies since then.This new reboot itself probably wouldnt have happened without him.

 

Dune 3 still hasnt been officially greenlit though- allegedly this movie needs to make around 700-800 Mn USD to justify it. 

 

 

Edited March 18 by Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

It's been 17 hours. Someone go check on Deadlines. Bring charger. And toilet paper.

I think the protein pancakes have me backed up a little. God damn. 

[Veltigar]

3 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

He's been a fan of the series since he was 14 and has basically wanted to make Dune movies since then.This new reboot itself probably wouldnt have happened without him.

 

Dune 3 still hasnt been officially greenlit though- allegedly this movie needs to make around 700-800 Mn USD to justify it. 

 

 

Stop trying to poop @Deadlines? What Deadlines? and get to work giving us a box office prediction. Will Dune 2 get the 700-800 Million USD @Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II needs to make a third one?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

12 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

Stop trying to poop @Deadlines? What Deadlines? and get to work giving us a box office prediction. Will Dune 2 get the 700-800 Million USD @Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II needs to make a third one?

Oh, I did that before the film came out. It'll cross a $1 billion. I'm sticking with that for now but I'll concede that it's starting to look like a bit of a stretch. Call it $850m to $1.05 Billion. 

I'm still formulating my thoughts on the other subject. The ideas are just purring out of me. 

[Durckad]

12 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well it hardly felt like Dune was this bombastic triumphal conclusion so I doubt audiences will mind. Bigger questions would be whether Dune 3 would use just Messiah as a basis or would it need to take more story from Children of Dune. Messiah is a bit of a thin book really, I can't see it making a particularly engrossing movie on it's own, but it also ends at a point that kind of demands another movie. So unless they have specific plans for it, I am pretty unsure of how they will approach it.

I dunno, Denis turned one half of Dune, which was mostly people talking and thinking in caves, into a 2 and a half hour movie that was very, very good and very not boring so I think there's enough meat on the Messiah's bone to make a full movie. Much like Dune Part Two, it probably won't be entirely faithful to the source material, but as Dune Part Two largely, IMO, benefited from the changes, I could certainly see movie of Messiah being quite engrossing.

[Derfel Cadarn]

3 hours ago, Durckad said:

I dunno, Denis turned one half of Dune, which was mostly people talking and thinking in caves, into a 2 and a half hour movie that was very, very good and very not boring so I think there's enough meat on the Messiah's bone to make a full movie. Much like Dune Part Two, it probably won't be entirely faithful to the source material, but as Dune Part Two largely, IMO, benefited from the changes, I could certainly see movie of Messiah being quite engrossing.

The Sci-fi TV version 20 years ago was pretty good, better than their Dune adaptation (which was faithful). They made Messiah part 1 of the 3 part Children of Dune.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Sci-fi TV version 20 years ago was pretty good, better than their Dune adaptation (which was faithful). They made Messiah part 1 of the 3 part Children of Dune.

Well it’s not terrible,  but it’s also not great. It gets a lot of credit on the basis of low expectations, due to it being  SyFy show and seemingly being more comprehensible than the Lynch movie. 
 

I rewatched it when the first Dune movie came out couple of years ago, and it reaffirmed in my mind why the story doesn’t really suit a movie of its own. In of itself it’s pretty unexciting and uneventful, it was only during Children that the story tends to pick up. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:35 PM, SeanF said:

A question.

Paul may be considered as a villain, by some,  for unleashing the Jihad.

But, was he was just supposed to kill hinself, and the Fremen to accept eternal Harkonnen rule, as the alternative?

And drawing parallels (as some do), with Daenerys’ anti-slavery campaign, in GOT.  Is the message to oppressed peoples basically “Suck it up. You should count your blessings?”

No. Remember that the Baron intended to annihilate the Fremen in the course of paving the way for Feyd, and, rebuilding his finances after the Atreides liquidation. And this result also doesn't solve the longer term problem of human survival. 

On 3/15/2024 at 3:48 PM, polishgenius said:

But those weren't the only two options. They were just the only options on the table once Paul made the knowing decision to manipulate the Fremen. The jihad isn't the inevitable result of Fremen freedom  - it's the inevitable result of achieving that freedom via Paul's manipulation of their beliefs. 

The Bene Gesserit take some blame for that as well. It's also not clear that their motivations in creating the Kwisatz Haderach are entirely pure, or couldn't be perverted in some way. Presumably they never stopped to ask should they do this. 

On 3/18/2024 at 3:07 AM, Loge said:

As Werthead explained:

  Hide contents

Paul really is the messiah, though the Bene Gesserit had no clue when they planted that legend that it might actually come true. Just as they had no clue who/what they had created with their breeding program. Paul is a failed messiah, though, because he refused to give up his humanity, as Leto then did.

Paul's mission was never about the Fremen, of course, or the Harkonnen, or the emperor. The later books make that clear.

 

The morality of Paul and Leto II's actions is difficult to define, given their prescience and the timescales involved. I had a whole thing about that but I'm tired. 

But yeah, genocide is bad tho. 

Edited March 21 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[mcbigski]

I'd love to see more.  DV knocked part 2 out of the park.

But Messiah, Children of Dune. and even include God Emperor, are increasingly more philosophical and less action oriented.  Paul defeats all of his immediate enemies by the end of book 1, the rest is excellent reading, but I'm not sure it's compelling when translated to a more visual format. 

Not sure where the end point should be, as the books get progressively less filmable.  

Cranky old me predicts the films will keep coming until they become unprofitable. OTOH my hope is that they stay true instead of selling out until the necessary end will come when it will come.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

He can naturally conclude Paul’s story atleast in Part 3. I’ll be happy if the series stops at that point. 

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

He can naturally conclude Paul’s story atleast in Part 3. I’ll be happy if the series stops at that point. 

The problem there is that the story is bigger than just Paul. His ending is actually much less interesting if you don't go into what happens afterwards.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

I'm doing this in bits. Between life happening and shits that is.

The discussion about Paul & Leto II and the morality of the whole Jihad/Golden path business reminds me of John Wayne...

[Werthead]

The "later books are unfilmable" thing is a bit overwrought. Only God-Emperor really has that problem. Heretics and Chapterhouse have much more action, with massive space battles, ground wars and entire planets blowing up (mostly offscreen, but you can bring some of that onscreen a bit).

Also, any and all subsequent films should have:

Spoiler

tons of Jason Momoas - Momoii? - to keep interest 

Obviously anyone even thinking of trying to film any of the Herbert Jnr./Anderson excretions should be beheaded before they even outline it.

Edited March 21 by Werthead

[polishgenius]

Honestly the 'how filmable are the sequels' debate isn't of much use until we know how closely Villeneuve intends to follow Dune Messiah- given that he's set it up to be impossible to start in anything like the same way. 

 

 

Also, as I've seen others say, if we want unfilmable, wake me when Villeneuve adapts Book of the New Sun. 

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

unfilmable

I say it time and again, nothing quite like Blood Meridian to disappoint an interested filmmaker looking to try and do justice.

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

given that he's set it up to be impossible to start in anything like the same way. 

If they go with their own new canon, I'm out.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Other than Chani -which IMO was a good change- it’s mainly the same. They’ve made Jessica a bit more evil and no toddler Alia but the story ends largely the same, certainly not enough to be its own “new canon”. 

I think this a rare example of an adaptation making good changes from the source material, unlike The Witcher or latter seasons of GoT.

[TheLastWolf]

29 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

but the story ends largely the same, certainly not enough to be its own “new canon”. 

But a lot of the character motivations and plot points that lead up to further events in the books are either changed or missing here. 

30 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

I think this a rare example of an adaptation making good changes from the source material

I'd agree if the deviations lead to something new with conviction and not contrivance. Only time will tell.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Other than Chani -which IMO was a good change- it’s mainly the same.

 

That's a pretty huge change though. Pretty much the entire reason for the start of the plot of Dune Messiah is that Paul is in love with Chani. At the very least Villeneuve would need to spend a portion of the film getting them back together, but I find it difficult to see how he'd do that and then segue into Dunne Messiah anyway. Nor why he'd make the change in the first place if that was what he intended. 

 

We talked about it earlier, but the inclusion of 'hello grandfather' suggests pretty strongly that Villeneuve is deliberately exploring another timeline branch to where the books went. What that entails is hard to say, but it also seems unlikely he'd deliberately include that reference and then hew so close to the books that it makes little odds. We're in the timeline that 'sickened' Paul - we'll need to know why that was. 

 

 

Also, neat little details I saw someone point out: Paul tells Chani he'll love her as long as he breathes, but when he takes the water of life, he stops breathing. 

[Liffguard]

12 hours ago, Werthead said:

  Hide contents

tons of Jason Momoas - Momoii? - to keep interest 

Spoiler

Compound plural - Jasons Momoa

 

On 3/19/2024 at 6:39 AM, Heartofice said:

Well it’s not terrible,  but it’s also not great. It gets a lot of credit on the basis of low expectations, due to it being  SyFy show and seemingly being more comprehensible than the Lynch movie. 
 

I rewatched it when the first Dune movie came out couple of years ago, and it reaffirmed in my mind why the story doesn’t really suit a movie of its own. In of itself it’s pretty unexciting and uneventful, it was only during Children that the story tends to pick up. 

I honestly really love the SyFy adapation. It's cheap and cheesy as hell, and the acting veers between wooden and melodrama. But it's earnest, and theatrical (literally, it comes across as a filmed stage play), and I adore the costumes and the general visual design. I think it really nails the pomp and opulence.

[Jace, Extat]

I think you could do an opening montage of the jihad, narrated by Chani, that ends with Paul and she reconciling. That would be a good way to show the passage of time, at first Paul is leading alone but he returns to Arrakis for her. 

Then they're back together for the events of Messiah. You could even have Paul be one of many Fremen returning disaffected from the jihad at the end of Chani's narration.

"What would I do, when I see him again?" She might ask the audience. 

And when he steps foot back on Arrakis you see them embrace.

- Then we're back on track for the events of Messiah and the God Emperor's Golden Path.