Football XXXIX: The Magic of M-S-N

[Disturber of Peace]

Messi grants the title.

Ronaldo thrice the man in small games.

[polishgenius]

Messi's had a great second half of the season, but let's be honest, Barcelona won the league because they've conceded 16 less goals and kept 23 clean sheets (as opposed to 15), not because of Messi.

[Mark Antony]

Mascherano :wub:

[BigFatCoward]

ronaldo has scored more league goals this season in hatricks, than all but aguero has scored in the league in total. the greasy twat deserves some respect.

[Spockydog]

You didn't have a single shot. I think Wenger has to take a strong share of the blame for that- like I said before, Ospina was just booting it out and we were winning it fairly easily, and while Spocky apparently blamed that mostly on Ospina, I think at least one fullback and Coquelin needed to be dropping far deeper when Ospina had the ball, give him more options.

Totally agree. That's why I said I would fine the entire back five every time the 'keeper kicks it long. The defence needs to make it easier/safer for the goalkeeper to feed it out from the back. The top, top teams very rarely kick it long. Barcelona and Bayern basically never do it.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Congratulations to Barca & Enrique for winning the title. Also, congratulations to AvB for winning the Russian title.

[Mexal]

Oh, I don't know. Alexis was probably guilty of it, but so were the other players. I can't remember us having a meaningful attack in the first half. I agree that he should be doing better, and it's not just this game where he's held onto the ball for a bit too long.

They were but your best player needs to show up in big games and when he's the one constantly giving it back to United, not ever releasing it to his teammates and all around being shit, you're in for a long afternoon. I'm a huge Sanchez fan but he's a massive liability, especially in big games against top 4 team. The set up Wenger went with had no chance. In these type of games, Ramsey should be in the middle and Walcott on the right to bring width and pace behind the back 4. Love what Wilshere brings lately. He's the only one that seems capable of turning and accelerating forward past the midfield. We miss Chamberlain.

I agree with everyone else about Ospina and playing out of the back. That was so bad. Ospina has been doing that all season. His distribution is terrible.

[Spockydog]

I'm a huge Sanchez fan but he's a massive liability...

I remember saying something similar about six months ago. The board reacted as if I were mad. :P

But yeah, he was dreadful today. I don't blame him, though. I blame the manager. While I can understand Wenger's reluctance to rotate a winning side, it's been painfully obvious for a good few weeks now that certain players are running on fumes. There's no point having a squad of 26 players if you're not going to use them. Perhaps this is why we get so many injuries. Aren't fatigued players more likely to get crockled?

And I fear for Sanchez. He's got the Copa America to deal with during the summer, as well as all the pre-season bollox that Arsenal will be doing. It's difficult to see when he's going to get any kind of worthwhile rest.

[Mexal]

I remember saying something similar about six months ago. The board reacted as if I were mad. :P

But yeah, he was dreadful today. I don't blame him, though. I blame the manager. While I can understand Wenger's reluctance to rotate a winning side, it's been painfully obvious for a good few weeks now that certain players are running on fumes. There's no point having a squad of 26 players if you're not going to use them. Perhaps this is why we get so many injuries. Aren't fatigued players more likely to get crockled?

And I fear for Sanchez. He's got the Copa America to deal with during the summer, as well as all the pre-season bollox that Arsenal will be doing. It's difficult to see when he's going to get any kind of worthwhile rest.

Eh, I don't think people need to be rotated all that much at this point in the season. We play once a week. If 25 year old players can't handle playing a game once a week then something is wrong.

The issue isn't really that players are tired but more that the balance that works against lesser teams does not work against top teams. That's where I blame Wenger, not for playing Sanchez which he'll play at all times in a top 4 game given it's Alexis Sanchez.

[Spockydog]

Eh, I don't think people need to be rotated all that much at this point in the season. We play once a week. If 25 year old players can't handle playing a game once a week then something is wrong.

The issue isn't really that players are tired but more that the balance that works against lesser teams does not work against top teams. That's where I blame Wenger, not for playing Sanchez which he'll play at all times in a top 4 game given it's Alexis Sanchez.

At the end of a long, hard season is precisely the time when players might need rotating. It's almost as if you do not understand that fatigue in sportsmen is a cumulative thing. Regardless, it was clear with Sanchez that he wasn't 100% fit today, yet Wenger leaves him on the pitch until the 90th minute.

Giroud has been in need of a rest for some time now. And how many times this season have we all thought Wenger was going to rest Sanchez, only to start him?

And you say, 'The balance that works against lesser teams does not work against top teams.' You do realise that today's starting XI was exactly the same team that beat Liverpool 4-1? And almost unchanged from the side that beat United in the Cup and City at the Etihad.

Unless you're referring to playing Ramsey out on the wing, in which case I totally agree.

[Inigima]

BILL HAMID FOR AMERICA

[Mexal]

At the end of a long, hard season is precisely the time when players might need rotating. It's almost as if you do not understand that fatigue in sportsmen is a cumulative thing. Regardless, it was clear with Sanchez that he wasn't 100% fit today, yet Wenger leaves him on the pitch until the 90th minute.

Giroud has been in need of a rest for some time now. And how many times this season have we all thought Wenger was going to rest Sanchez, only to start him?

And you say, 'The balance that works against lesser teams does not work against top teams.' You do realise that today's starting XI was exactly the same team that beat Liverpool 4-1? And almost unchanged from the side that beat United in the Cup and City at the Etihad.

Unless you're referring to playing Ramsey out on the wing, in which case I totally agree.

Figured the edit wasn't worth it? Good, I don't want to argue or get nasty with you. Not trying to be purposely condescending, it's just my way of saying I don't really agree with what your assertion.

Basically, I just disagree with you that our play today had to do with tired players. Professional players generally need rests during the busy periods of the season like Christmas or March when we're playing three competitions. When we're playing once a week, they should be fine. Hazard plays every game. Fabregas plays every game. Matic plays most games. The entire back 4 of Chelsea plays every game. An extra week break at this point where they're not playing a game but still training every day would barely make a difference.

I don't blame the way we played today on players being tired. I blame it on how they normally play. Sanchez has been inconsistent since January, whether tired or not. Ramsey has been inconsistent all year (and his career), whether on the wing or not. Giroud has been inconsistent all year (and his career), whether he's played half the games the rest of the league has played or not. It's the nature of how they play, it's the nature of how they play against certain teams and a lot of it comes down to the tactics of the manager. Ramsey on the wing isn't great in a game like this because you have zero threat behind the defense (we agree on this). Cazorla in the center in a game like this doesn't make much sense since he doesn't really make tackles, get the ball and quickly push up field, nor does he make driving runs to support Giroud. I understand this was the line up we played against Liverpool and won, but it hasn't played all that well for most weeks even if we won some of these games (Reading, Burnely, Swansea, Chelsea, United).

Anyway, like what I saw from Wilshere and have since he's come back. Would love to see Giroud have a bit more support in the center with maybe Sanchez or Walcott playing off him. Would like to see Ramsey back in the middle where he can get more involved in the game and drive up field knowing Coquelin is there to support him. Would like to see Cazorla sit on the bench since even though he's been decent enough at CM, I think he's severely limited and at his absolute best in Ozil's spot. And like you've been saying for a long time, would love to see another keeper get a shot like Emi Martinez (if he's back from loan).

[Inigima]

Ugh. Disappointing end.

[kairparavel]

Ugh. Disappointing end.

Very. But they did play 3 games in 8 days, Maybe just ran out of gas there. I only watched bits and pieces.

[Gears of the Beast]

Not watching the game, but it sounds pretty special!

That is fucking amazing

[Raja]

I don't think the set-up was the major problem yesterday, in my mind, the players did not want to take the ball on in tight positions. That changed in the second half, we were willing to take risks. There's a bit more that I disagree with, but I'll probably post that later.

Also, I don't think anyone would have had Santi on the bench before last night's game. In hindsight? Maybe, but I can't hardly blame AW for going with Santi in the middle, given how well he's done in that position. Santi-Coquelin and Ozil were nailed on in the centre. And sure, Walcott did well after coming on, but he's done fuck all in most of his appearances since coming back. Up until yesterday, he has not warranted a start ( and even then, I still don't think he'll get a start in the final) . Playing him away from home against Young and co. would have given Bellerin zero protection.

[Spockydog]

Figured the edit wasn't worth it? Good, I don't want to argue or get nasty with you. Not trying to be purposely condescending, it's just my way of saying I don't really agree with what your assertion.

Basically, I just disagree with you that our play today had to do with tired players. Professional players generally need rests during the busy periods of the season like Christmas or March when we're playing three competitions. When we're playing once a week, they should be fine. Hazard plays every game. Fabregas plays every game. Matic plays most games. The entire back 4 of Chelsea plays every game. An extra week break at this point where they're not playing a game but still training every day would barely make a difference.

I don't blame the way we played today on players being tired. I blame it on how they normally play. Sanchez has been inconsistent since January, whether tired or not. Ramsey has been inconsistent all year (and his career), whether on the wing or not. Giroud has been inconsistent all year (and his career), whether he's played half the games the rest of the league has played or not. It's the nature of how they play, it's the nature of how they play against certain teams and a lot of it comes down to the tactics of the manager. Ramsey on the wing isn't great in a game like this because you have zero threat behind the defense (we agree on this). Cazorla in the center in a game like this doesn't make much sense since he doesn't really make tackles, get the ball and quickly push up field, nor does he make driving runs to support Giroud. I understand this was the line up we played against Liverpool and won, but it hasn't played all that well for most weeks even if we won some of these games (Reading, Burnely, Swansea, Chelsea, United).

Anyway, like what I saw from Wilshere and have since he's come back. Would love to see Giroud have a bit more support in the center with maybe Sanchez or Walcott playing off him. Would like to see Ramsey back in the middle where he can get more involved in the game and drive up field knowing Coquelin is there to support him. Would like to see Cazorla sit on the bench since even though he's been decent enough at CM, I think he's severely limited and at his absolute best in Ozil's spot. And like you've been saying for a long time, would love to see another keeper get a shot like Emi Martinez (if he's back from loan).

Yeah, thought better of that edit. This is by far the best place on the entire internet to discuss football, and I don't really want to fall out with anyone. :cheers:

I stand by what I said about cumulative fatigue. You have to rotate. If you don't, you won't win anything. And it's interesting that you use Chelsea as an example, because Mourinho hasn't fielded the same starting XI twice in a row all year (even when all they had was one game a week). That's 24 games (it could be more - I didn't check back further than 01 January) where he has tweaked his line up. Why? To give someone a rest, to keep things fresh, or just to keep players on their toes? And btw - he definitely does switch up his defence, usually rotating Azpilicueta and Luis. But Zouma's also come in for Cahill in more than a few games.

As for ourselves, while it's easier to play the back four in every game as they don't cover as much ground as the midfielders and attackers, sometimes players just need to be benched. Whether it's to give them a rest, or a kick up the arse when they're not playing particularly well. Giroud, in particular, is a player susceptible to burn-out. We saw it last season, and he's looking a bit jaded once again. As is Sanchez. I get that Wenger wants to play him in every game, and I'm sure the player himself makes it very difficult for the manager to rest him. But something was definitely amiss with him yesterday, and that it took Wenger 90 minutes to do something about it was extremely frustrating.

And not sure I agree about Santi. I think he's been mostly excellent in the centre of midfield, with his display in the win against City probably the stand-out individual performance of the season. In that game he did all the things you said he can't do - he made plenty of tackles, moved the ball quickly, and made many driving runs out of midfield. His problem has been consistency, which to be fair, has been a problem for most of the team - with the exception of Ozil, who, since he came back from injury, has probably been our best player.

Like you, I've been encouraged by what I've seen of Wilshere since he came back. Maybe Wenger's comments about him needing a couple of years to return to his best have spurred him on, but he has been fucking excellent in the past few games. He definitely doesn't look like a player who has been out all season.

[Mexal]

I don't think the set-up was the major problem yesterday, in my mind, the players did not want to take the ball on in tight positions. That changed in the second half, we were willing to take risks. There's a bit more that I disagree with, but I'll probably post that later.

Also, I don't think anyone would have had Santi on the bench before last night's game. In hindsight? Maybe, but I can't hardly blame AW for going with Santi in the middle, given how well he's done in that position. Santi-Coquelin and Ozil were nailed on in the centre. And sure, Walcott did well after coming on, but he's done fuck all in most of his appearances since coming back. Up until yesterday, he has not warranted a start ( and even then, I still don't think he'll get a start in the final) . Playing him away from home against Young and co. would have given Bellerin zero protection.

Ramsey rarely gave him any protection either so not like it mattered much.

I get Santi-Coquelin was nailed into the center but I've been noticing for weeks that it's slow out of the back and that for the most part, Cazorla isn't very involved (Hull being an exception where he was excellent). I get Spockydog's point that Cazorla was the man against City in the center (in a 4-1-4-1, so further up the pitch) but that was also back in February. He isn't capable of doing that game to game. It's why Ramsey, with his motor, is a true CM and Cazorla is an excellent playmaker.

I still believe that nothing was wrong with Sanchez other than him trying to be the man in a big game and screwing up. He has done it for us since January and was like that at Barcelona as well. You get the amazing work rate, finishing ability and moments of brilliance but on the flip side, you also get the predictable cut backs to his right foot, misplaced passes and the frustrating inability to release the ball when driving up field. I hope he improves next season but I think this is just who he is.

I don't expect it to happen but I'd love to see Ramsey or Wilshere paired next to Coquelin, Ozil at 10 and a front 3 of Welbeck, Walcott and Sanchez. I just want to see what type of damage those players could do. I get Walcott has been mostly shit but he has only gotten one start this year (and like 3 subs given we've been in the lead most games) and offers something that no other player on this team does (runs behind the defense instead of wanting ball at feet). It may not be good or it may be great, I don't know, but I'm really tired of CMs playing as wingers and no pace or runners on the field. It's not much different than last year when we had Cazorla/Wilshere/Rosicky on the wings and tried to pass the ball into the net since we didn't have any runners.

[Cashless Society]

I'm really tired of CMs playing as wingers and no pace or runners on the field. It's not much different than last year when we had Cazorla/Wilshere/Rosicky on the wings and tried to pass the ball into the net since we didn't have any runners.

I'm with you on this.

[Spockydog]

I'm really tired of CMs playing as wingers and no pace or runners on the field.

We should totally bring Jenks back from West Ham and use him as an attacking winger. He's got the pace, and is the best crosser of the ball we've had for years. Also, seeing as his natural instinct is to defend, he'd provide a bit more protection for whoever's at right back.

Do it Wenger! Do it. Doooooo iiiiiiiiittttt!