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Canon Claude

Did Tywin have Steffon killed?

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I know that we have no actual evidence for Tywin's involvement in Steffon's death at sea, and the only person who seems to suspect anything was the Mad King. But to be honest, it really strikes me as something that Tywin was capable of doing. He had his own son's wife gangraped, including by his son after everyone else had had a go. That kind of psychopathic cruelty makes me think that if his position as Hand of the King was really threatened, he wouldn't have thought anything about sabotaging Steffon's ship so that he wouldn't make it home alive. The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't quite know how he'd have managed it. Anyone who causes the ship to sink would go down with the ship too, and I don't know where you'd find someone willing to die for a conspiracy.

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For some reason I don’t see Tywin attempting to do such a thing. It just feels that it isn’t something he would do, but thats just me really.  Tywin is one of the hardest characters to understand for me. 

I also think that having steffon and Cassandra die at Shipbreakers bay is just a way for George to demonstrate how dangerous it is. Plus he needed Robert as lord before the mad king went full on berserk. 

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48 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

For some reason I don’t see Tywin attempting to do such a thing. It just feels that it isn’t something he would do, but thats just me really.  Tywin is one of the hardest characters to understand for me. 

I also think that having steffon and Cassandra die at Shipbreakers bay is just a way for George to demonstrate how dangerous it is. Plus he needed Robert as lord before the mad king went full on berserk. 

It’s a hell of a tricky situation he needed; Robert had to be Lord of Storm’s End, but Renly has to be young enough that he’ll be a fresh faced youth who didn’t fight in the rebellion. And Renly also had to be old enough that he wouldn’t have simply been brought along by his mother.

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6 hours ago, James Steller said:

It’s a hell of a tricky situation he needed; Robert had to be Lord of Storm’s End, but Renly has to be young enough that he’ll be a fresh faced youth who didn’t fight in the rebellion. And Renly also had to be old enough that he wouldn’t have simply been brought along by his mother.

Renly would have had a wetnurse instead of his mother, surely?

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15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

I know that we have no actual evidence for Tywin's involvement in Steffon's death at sea, and the only person who seems to suspect anything was the Mad King. But to be honest, it really strikes me as something that Tywin was capable of doing.

He's capable of summoning a storm? Why was he holding back this magical ability during the War of the Five Kings?

The storm came up suddenly, howling, and Shipbreaker Bay proved the truth of its name. The lord's two-masted galley Windproud broke up within sight of his castle. From its parapets his two eldest sons had watched as their father's ship was smashed against the rocks and swallowed by the waters. A hundred oarsmen and sailors went down with Lord Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife, and for days thereafter every tide left a fresh crop of swollen corpses on the strand below Storm's End.

Obviously Tywin is not responsible for this.

If Tywin wanted him dead, do you not think it more likely it would be via assassination while he was in Volantis or on a trip to Kings Landing. Conjuring a storm is not something that can be bought and seems a risk given there were survivors.

 

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

 

 

He had his own son's wife gangraped, including by his son after everyone else had had a go.

In his eyes she was never his wife, but someone he thought of as no better than a whore. That does not excuse the abhorrent act, but you may as well frame it correctly.

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

 

That kind of psychopathic cruelty makes me think that if his position as Hand of the King was really threatened, he wouldn't have thought anything about sabotaging Steffon's ship so that he wouldn't make it home alive.

Do you not think there are easier ways to have him removed rather than relying on a terrible storm?

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

 

The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't quite know how he'd have managed it. Anyone who causes the ship to sink would go down with the ship too, and I don't know where you'd find someone willing to die for a conspiracy.

That is the only thing?

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I suppose Tywin could have hired a shadow binder to burn a few leeches on the beach and conjure a storm.  It's too much.  He would have done something simpler and more certain.  The storm is not likely.  Too much magic will be needed.  But what if Patchface or someone on board sabotaged the rudder.  That would make the ship unmanageable in a storm.  

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He might be capable of being a mean bastard but that doesn't mean he can summon storms unless... 

Spoiler

 

Tywin's a secret targ 

Secret children of the forest

 

 

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Much as I'd love to blame Tywin, I don't think he had anything to do with it. Steffon's murderer was Chance and possibly Bad Luck depending on who's commenting. The point of the scene is to show Aerys' animosity towards Tywin and his paranoia leading him down strange tracks of thought. Plus maybe a guilty conscience that's projecting? Aerys might very well have been planning to double cross his old friend if Steffon was successful, and maybe he felt strangely guilty about that before he went completely bonkers?

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The obvious explanation is that Tywin did have magical powers to cause storms, but he spent them all killing Steffon. The only alternative is that the Mad King really was as mad as everyone says he was, and the first rule of ASoIaF theory-crafting is to believe the opposite.

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35 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The obvious explanation is that Tywin did have magical powers to cause storms, but he spent them all killing Steffon. The only alternative is that the Mad King really was as mad as everyone says he was, and the first rule of ASoIaF theory-crafting is to believe the opposite.

I'll be honest, this idea was more of a weed-influenced musing than a theory. 

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On 10/22/2020 at 5:24 PM, Canon Claude said:

I know that we have no actual evidence for Tywin's involvement in Steffon's death at sea, and the only person who seems to suspect anything was the Mad King. But to be honest, it really strikes me as something that Tywin was capable of doing. He had his own son's wife gangraped, including by his son after everyone else had had a go. That kind of psychopathic cruelty makes me think that if his position as Hand of the King was really threatened, he wouldn't have thought anything about sabotaging Steffon's ship so that he wouldn't make it home alive. The only thing that gives me pause is that I don't quite know how he'd have managed it. Anyone who causes the ship to sink would go down with the ship too, and I don't know where you'd find someone willing to die for a conspiracy.

The king refused Tywin's proposal for Cersei but killing Steffon was not an appropriate response.  I guess if Tywin suspected a potential bride was on the ship and wanted to stop the engagement, he might.  It's still too hard to accept.  Steffon's death was incidental.  

 

On 10/23/2020 at 12:46 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I suppose Tywin could have hired a shadow binder to burn a few leeches on the beach and conjure a storm.  It's too much.  He would have done something simpler and more certain.  The storm is not likely.  Too much magic will be needed.  But what if Patchface or someone on board sabotaged the rudder.  That would make the ship unmanageable in a storm.  

Tywin wouldn't need magic. Just a hired gun on board.  I don't believe it's Patchy.  It had to be someone who sailed with the boat when it left Westeros.

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On 10/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I suppose Tywin could have hired a shadow binder to burn a few leeches on the beach and conjure a storm.  It's too much.  He would have done something simpler and more certain.  The storm is not likely.  Too much magic will be needed.  But what if Patchface or someone on board sabotaged the rudder.  That would make the ship unmanageable in a storm.  

Just my opinion on the leeches thing: Melissandre didn't cause the three kings to die, she merely saw their deaths in her flames (after all, many people had seen these deaths in visions, like the house of the undying or the Ghost of High Hart) and did the leeches thing to get credit. If she could kill people just by burning leeches there wouldn't be a need for Stannis to be involved in Renley's death, and Mel could've had Stannis accept Joff as king only to burn some leeches, kill him and Tommen and have little people reject him as true king.

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:34 PM, Trigger Warning said:

He might be capable of being a mean bastard but that doesn't mean he can summon storms unless... 

  Hide contents

 

Tywin's a secret targ 

Secret children of the forest

 

 

or a secret squisher

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It's not impossible for a paid henchman to sabotage the boat.  Let's look at some possible motives.  Jealousy - Aerys trusted Steffon to choose a bride for the prince.  Revenge - Aerys snubbed Cersei.  Political - Tywin wants Rhaegar to marry from within the kingdom. 

It isn't only Tywin who would have an interest in Rhaegar's future marriage.  The Martells could have plotted the whole thing and gotten what they wanted.  The maesters doesn't want a foreign religion to marry into the royal family. 

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If Steffon's death was Tywin's doing then I think that he did it thru Faceless Men. This is how it could have been done - When Steffon's ship was approaching Stormlands' coast, they had a bad weather forecast, they knew that it will be storming soon, so they were going to wait out the storm in the open sea away from the shore, to prevent crushing into rocks. So while they were waiting for the storm to pass, Patchface killed everyone on board. Possibly poisoned food or water, and everyone on that ship died. Then Patchface turned the ship towards shore, took a boat and sailed away from rocks. The ship crushed, but everyone on it were already dead. Then Patchface ditched his boat, sent a message to his employer that the job is done, and then received instructions from Tywin to keep a watch over remaining Baratheons. So Patchface went on a beach near the crash site and pretended that he was washed ashore and that he's the only survivor of that shipwreck.

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The Martells would have the most to gain.  It's interesting.  The ship was so close to the safety of home.  And then the storm came on and broke the ship within sight of land.  It's almost as if the assassin waited until the last moment to do the job.  Why?  So he can make it to shore.  It wasn't a suicide mission.  Patchface can't be the saboteur though.  He was brought along by Ser Steffon on a spur of the moment decision. 

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