Joss Whedon: So Cancelled His Thread Got a Sequel

[DMC]

56 minutes ago, Fez said:

and also was basically just being himself in some fancy clothes.

Are you saying Jeff Goldblum has an orgy spaceship?  Lucky...

Anyway, yeah, the MCU villains have always been a big problem in terms of mirror images of the heroes, starting with Bridges/Iron Man.  It's definitely one aspect DC got right just at the mainstream level with Batman/Joker and Superman/Luthor.

[Jaxom 1974]

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

Are you saying Jeff Goldblum has an orgy spaceship?  Lucky...

Anyway, yeah, the MCU villains have always been a big problem in terms of mirror images of the heroes, starting with Bridges/Iron Man.  It's definitely one aspect DC got right just at the mainstream level with Batman/Joker and Superman/Luthor.

Wait. You think DC got Lex Luthor right in the DCEU?  Am I understanding that correctly?

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Wait. You think DC got Lex Luthor right in the DCEU?  Am I understanding that correctly?

Oh, no, sorry.  Not at all.  Just that Luthor and Joker were much more interesting villains for their counterparts because they weren't mirror images - and instead had very interesting adversarial..traits (gifts?) in opposition.  I've barely seen Luthor in the DCEU.

[mormont]

8 hours ago, sifth said:

I'm probably in the minority, but I really liked Ego as a villain. Just the concept of a living planet was pretty cool and I'm honestly surprised it was never used in Star Trek before.

The problem with a lot of MCU villains is they're basically just evil clones of the hero, with usually the exact same powers or very similar ones. Ant Man fought evil Ant Man, Doctor Strange fights an evil wizard, heck even Killmonger devolves into evil Black Panther by the end of his film.

They should really try to keep the villains as their own unique character.

Yeah, the MCU has played out the 'the villain is a dark mirror image of the hero' line but they don't seem able to drop it. I think the idea of it is to keep the focus on the hero, using the villain to show up the hero's flaws and how their live might have been or might go if they don't struggle to do the right thing. But it often leaves the villains as incomplete characters.

I've heard it suggested that it's a good thing Sony refused to let Marvel play with Venom, because it forced them not to do the 'dark mirror' plot with Spider-Man.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

Yeah, the MCU has played out the 'the villain is a dark mirror image of the hero' line but they don't seem able to drop it. I think the idea of it is to keep the focus on the hero, using the villain to show up the hero's flaws and how their live might have been or might go if they don't struggle to do the right thing. But it often leaves the villains as incomplete characters.

I've heard it suggested that it's a good thing Sony refused to let Marvel play with Venom, because it forced them not to do the 'dark mirror' plot with Spider-Man.

Yea, the annoying thing is, the evil villain being a clone of the hero thing, is starting to bleed over into their tv shows now. Just look at how WandaVision ended. It really does feel kind of lazy and I often wonder if it's simply done to save money for when the final fight happens at the end...............I mean all they really have to do is change up a few colors and they can pretty much get away with using the same CGI for both characters.

[Fez]

8 hours ago, DMC said:

Are you saying Jeff Goldblum has an orgy spaceship?  Lucky...

I don't know about a spaceship, but he's definitely got a bacchanalian orgy area somewhere. You ever listen/watch interviews with him? He's got pan-sexual chemistry with everyone.

[Week]

3 hours ago, Fez said:

I don't know about a spaceship, but he's definitely got a bacchanalian orgy area somewhere. You ever listen/watch interviews with him? He's got pan-sexual chemistry with everyone.

Well, y'know, life, uh, finds a way.

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

I've heard it suggested that it's a good thing Sony refused to let Marvel play with Venom, because it forced them not to do the 'dark mirror' plot with Spider-Man.

Did they ask to play with Venom? I'd find that surprising. Both because they seemed to want to avoid repeating things that have been done on screen in recent memory and because you'd think they'd want to wait a few movies before bringing in the black suit. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Did they ask to play with Venom? I'd find that surprising. Both because they seemed to want to avoid repeating things that have been done on screen in recent memory and because you'd think they'd want to wait a few movies before bringing in the black suit. 

Technically they had the black suit in Far From Home, when he was ‘Night Monkey’

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Week said:

Well, y'know, life, uh, finds a way.

Is "life" what the kids are calling it these days?

[mormont]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Did they ask to play with Venom? I'd find that surprising. Both because they seemed to want to avoid repeating things that have been done on screen in recent memory and because you'd think they'd want to wait a few movies before bringing in the black suit. 

No idea. But the point is that Venom is absolutely the archetype Marvel love to play with - the dark mirror of the hero. However, whether Marvel asked or not, Venom was always going to be off limits because Sony wanted to do a Venom movie, so Marvel had to go to the other classic Spidey villains, who are less similar and so more interesting.

It's worth noting that this isn't just an MCU thing. Both Marvel and DC love that 'dark mirror' stuff in the comics too. But the most enduring nemeses include some way in which they parallel the hero, but also add something unique of their own.

[Fez]

30 minutes ago, mormont said:

No idea. But the point is that Venom is absolutely the archetype Marvel love to play with - the dark mirror of the hero. However, whether Marvel asked or not, Venom was always going to be off limits because Sony wanted to do a Venom movie, so Marvel had to go to the other classic Spidey villains, who are less similar and so more interesting.

It's worth noting that this isn't just an MCU thing. Both Marvel and DC love that 'dark mirror' stuff in the comics too. But the most enduring nemeses include some way in which they parallel the hero, but also add something unique of their own.

It's not just comic book movies. There's an awful lot of action movies in general where the bad guy is the dark mirror of the hero. The good cop vs the corrupt cop, the spy vs the fallen spy, the honorable veteran vs the veteran using wartime connections to become a drug dealer/arms dealer, the Allied soldier vs. the Axis soldier, and so on.

I'm sure it was interesting at first, but at this point I definitely prefer more asymmetrical stories; e.g. cops vs. robbers. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

No idea. But the point is that Venom is absolutely the archetype Marvel love to play with - the dark mirror of the hero. However, whether Marvel asked or not, Venom was always going to be off limits because Sony wanted to do a Venom movie, so Marvel had to go to the other classic Spidey villains, who are less similar and so more interesting.

It's worth noting that this isn't just an MCU thing. Both Marvel and DC love that 'dark mirror' stuff in the comics too. But the most enduring nemeses include some way in which they parallel the hero, but also add something unique of their own.

 

The only dark mirror villain I honestly love is The Joker and it's because he's so different than Batman in nearly every way. The dark mirror role only comes into play when you look deeper at their philosophies of order vs chaos.

Magneto is a pretty good one as well, but half of the time he's a good guy, so I'm not sure if he even counts, lol

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

 

The only dark mirror villain I honestly love is The Joker and it's because he's so different than Batman in nearly every way. The dark mirror role only comes into play when look deeper at their philosophies or order vs chaos.

Magneto is a pretty good one as well, but half of the time he's a good guy, so I'm not sure if he even counts, lol

Surely the mirror aspect of the Joker is a later invention? Killing Joke?

I have to say I was always quite enamoured with the mirror concept, ever since I saw an episode of Incredible Hulk, the old live action show, where I am pretty sure there was another hulk.. who I think was meant to be like abomination or something. From that point I’ve always quite enjoyed the idea. 
 

It doesn’t always work though, most of the time it’s quite lazy. Ant Man and Yellowjacket is simply not interesting for example, and Iron Man fighting a slightly bigger Iron Man didn’t really set hearts racing. 

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Iron Man fighting a slightly bigger Iron Man didn’t really set hearts racing. 

Nor did a Mickey Rourke Iron Man.  With whips.

[Maithanet]

On 4/11/2021 at 5:37 PM, DMC said:

Nor did a Mickey Rourke Iron Man.  With whips.

Mickey Rourke's Whiplash has got to be the worst MCU villain I've ever seen.  Not only was he boring and nonsensical, he wasn't even particularly formidable. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 4/8/2021 at 5:15 PM, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Well that would be the brass ring, I guess. Kevin Feige is our lord and savior after all.

This is still a Joss Whedon thread, isn't it?

Zach Snyder is good at action set pieces.  Not much else.

[Myrddin]

On 4/11/2021 at 4:21 PM, Fez said:

It's not just comic book movies. There's an awful lot of action movies in general where the bad guy is the dark mirror of the hero. The good cop vs the corrupt cop, the spy vs the fallen spy, the honorable veteran vs the veteran using wartime connections to become a drug dealer/arms dealer, the Allied soldier vs. the Axis soldier, and so on.

I'm sure it was interesting at first, but at this point I definitely prefer more asymmetrical stories; e.g. cops vs. robbers. 

It went over my head as a kid, but In Raiders of the Lost Ark, Belloq is "a shadowy reflection" of Indy. Rivals that could've been friends if not for one stepping further over the line. Indy had a reputation for grave robbing as well, if you remember. The difference is what rule each is willing to bend in search of his fortune and glory. 

[unJon]

So does Whedon being canceled mean The Nevers won’t get a second season? Must say I’m enjoying it so far. 

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, unJon said:

So does Whedon being canceled mean The Nevers won’t get a second season? Must say I’m enjoying it so far. 

Linda and I as well! There's a thread for it.

As to a second season, well, that's unclear. I hope so, I guess? But I'm concerned that the showrunner, who seems to have had no connection at all to the show until she was installed as showrunner following Whedon's departure, does not have much of a track record...