Final: England v Italy

[The Sunland Lord]

23 minutes ago, Gorn said:

I remember Italy being mocked for fielding a pair of stoppers with the combined age of 70. Guess experience has some advantages as well.

Some Italians I know mocked Mancini the most for this. No one can say anything now that they won them the Euros.

[a free shadow]

What a good news to start the day.

Not the 8:0 annihilation I was hoping for, but still something.

First time a team pushed me off even watching the game.

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

And the changes are already known, its not like we have to wait for people to emerge. All our players are moving toward, rather than away from their prime for the WC. 

With his injury issues it's not impossible that Kane will be on the fade earlier than you'd normally expect from a 'prime', though one year isn't a lot so you'd hope not before the WC. But other than that, yeah, only getting better. 

[Heartofice]

Yeah it’s interesting just how different the side could have been had we played last year. Kane would have been injured, Shaw probably wouldn’t have started, Phillips wouldn’t have been in there. The whole side would have looked different, probably a lot worse. 
 

Looking forward there is much to anticipate with this england side. I think someone said on the Athletic it’s not a coincidence that England are producing so many of this tricky attacking players, as it seems to be a goal of the academy system that’s been put in place.. but then you wonder whether that same system will stop producing other types of players at the same rate. 

[Consigliere]

The good things Southgate has done is foster a great team spirit and has gotten his team to consistently beat teams they should be beating at major tournaments which is a big improvement from some of the past England sides. The bad is that it seems the team and manager still have an inferiority complex - Southgate's tactics fall far too much on the side of adapting to the opposition rather than looking to impose their own game on the opposition. England have the players to go toe-to-toe with any team so it's frustrating when they play like West Brom as soon as they come up against stronger opposition.

[RhaenysBee]

I’m awfully sorry to see that the penalties of last night’s match are being turned into politics and then that’s countered with even more politics. These poor guys are young players who barely, if at all, played in the tournament. They clearly had no experience with the kind of pressure that was put on them in a very critical moment. Suddenly the entire euro cup win was on their shoulders, that must be a hell of a weight at the beginning of your career. Maybe it would have been a better strategy to have Sterling,  Grealish and Shaw do the penalties, who were coping with the stress and pressure of the final already. We will never know. It could have gone either way. I just wish we could leave politics entirely out of sports and not drag the sportsmen into it. 

[JoannaL]

Great victory Italy!  The better team won even if they had to play against a team in their home country. Actually, I think it would be much better to have semifinals and finals in different countries than the countries of the competing teams, that would be much fairer and much less booing and so on... and perhaps less chaos on the streets.

[BigFatCoward]

19 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Great victory Italy!  The better team won even if they had to play against a team in their home country. Actually, I think it would be much better to have semifinals and finals in different countries than the countries of the competing teams, that would be much fairer and much less booing and so on... and perhaps less chaos on the streets.

You couldn't organise it in time. Unless you picked countries that definitely weren't going to be involved in which case they would probably lack the stadium infrastructure. 

[polishgenius]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think someone said on the Athletic it’s not a coincidence that England are producing so many of this tricky attacking players, as it seems to be a goal of the academy system that’s been put in place.

 

I saw someone suggest, and I think there may be something to it too given the backgrounds of a lot of these guys, is the closing off of green spaced to play football means a lot of kids are learning their craft from young in the cages, playing futsal. Then they go into the academies and that's further developed.
 

I don't think it'll really stop other positions from being developed though. I'd say the current glut of wide forwards has more to do with international fashionability than the academy system- every nation started developing wide forwards and creators over CFs, in fact England even though behind Kane there's a gap in quality probably have more depth in that area than anyone. 

 

There's a current gap in central midfield talent, compared to  Lampard-Scholes years, sure, but those two were unusually good. 

 

It's also definitely fair to say that the whole system of British football from the roots up has become more focused on technicality over the past 15 years or so, and that'll manifest in different kinds of players than the past, maybe, but England aren't gonna stop producing center-forwards, CMs or CBs. What you do have to bear in mind is that England have probably the most wide-reaching and developed club system of any country in the world and the talent should have been coming through more regularly than it has, it got left behind because of our insistence on prioritising winning at a very early age and therefore prioritising physicality that evened itself out over technical skill which carries. That's no longer true and really England should be producing top-level squads consistently in the foreseeable future.  

[Iskaral Pust]

18 hours ago, Padraig said:

Congrats Italy.  I think over the full tournament, they were the most impressive, although i'm still amazed at how Spain completely dominated them in the semi-finals.

Eyes will start moving to the WC now.  Spain are a young team.  Maybe they'll find a striker over the next 16 months.  England could certainly be there again.  Maybe they'll be a little braver.  France will be back.  Italy depended on a few very experienced players, who may not be around though.  Belgium's time may be finally up.  Germany will need a major rebuild.  And then you have the rest of the world.  Should be interesting.

The WC is closer than usual to this tournament, so perhaps Italy will try to stick with their creaking CBs for one more go.

Belgium’s golden generation doesn’t have to be done.  The age problem only really applies to their defense: Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Vermaelen.  They can probably get one more tournament out of them.  The rest of the team is fine, except for Mertens who has already been eased aside.

Spain have a season to see if Ferran Torres can be a striker (replacing Aguero’s role at City), or adapt to a formation like Liverpool.  Or possibly Morata will finally become a more consistent finisher.  They sure create plenty and have deep talent.

Germany need to experiment to find a new line-up, but they have some real talent to draw on.  They blew Portugal away, even if they struggled against England and France.

France will still have a monstrous squad depth.  Probably their question is whether to move on now from Griezeman, even if he was central to their WC win (and reaching the last Euro final).

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

The WC is closer than usual to this tournament, so perhaps Italy will try to stick with their creaking CBs for one more go.

Belgium’s golden generation doesn’t have to be done.  The age problem only really applies to their defense: Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Vermaelen.  They can probably get one more tournament out of them.  The rest of the team is fine, except for Mertens who has already been eased aside.

Spain have a season to see if Ferran Torres can be a striker (replacing Aguero’s role at City), or adapt to a formation like Liverpool.  Or possibly Morata will finally become a more consistent finisher.  They sure create plenty and have deep talent.

Germany need to experiment to find a new line-up, but they have some real talent to draw on.  They blew Portugal away, even if they struggled against England and France.

France will still have a monstrous squad depth.  Probably their question is whether to move on now from Griezeman, even if he was central to their WC win (and reaching the last Euro final).

 

Agree with most here except the Griezmann bit. He was one of France's better players at this tournament and as you've pointed out, he was crucial to France's progress at Euro 2016 and WC 2018. It would be madness to drop him. I think the player that needs to be dropped is Dembele. France can't really afford to carry two massively injury prone players in Dembele and Coman and between the two, I'd pick Coman everyday of the week.

Quote

Germany need to experiment to find a new line-up, but they have some real talent to draw on.  They blew Portugal away, even if they struggled against England and France.

I don't think they need to experiment that much. Flick is almost certainly going to prefer a 4-2-3-1 and I think the midfield + forward line can be predicted with a decent amount of accuracy right now - Kimmich and Goretzka in midfield; two of Werner, Sane and Gnabry as wide forwards and probably Havertz as a false 9 with Muller behind him.

[Padraig]

4 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Belgium’s golden generation doesn’t have to be done.  The age problem only really applies to their defense: Alderweireld, Vertonghen and Vermaelen.  They can probably get one more tournament out of them.  

I was more pondering whether Belgium is a major threat in its current form.  Rather than its current format continuing.  And maybe if Hazard and de Bruyne have no injury concerns before the next WC, they can bounce back.  But it wasn't a good Euros for Belgium (to me, they've only had one big win over Brazil over the last 6 years.  Its not a great sign that they will ever not under-achieve).   And those players are getting that little bit older.

Similarly, Italy.  Chiellini and Bonucci may continue but that's normally a recipe for failure.  Over-depending on ancient players who brought you success last time...

I forgot the Dutch.  Young team.  If they hadn't a player sent off, they could have progressed.  But they really fell apart after that player was sent off, which isn't a great sign either.

And Germany.  A new coach should certainly help them.  They struggled against Hungary as well.  After a very poor WC.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Right now, there's no clear favorites like, say, Spain 2010. A year and a half can change a lot- Brazil 17 months before the 2002 WC looked like it could miss qualifying (indeed, Scolari wasn't the manager yet), Croatia only guaranteed qualification to the playoffs in the last round, etc.

That said, Italy looks very, very good right now, even if not unbeatable by any means. Spain too if they can get their strikers to score (if they had someone like Villa they'd be the favorites). Belgium has an aging defense- which, granted, so does Italy, but their old guys look much better than the Belgium ones. But if Hazard and De Bruyne are both fit they are serious contenders.

Netherlands will be much better with VVD, but lack of experience might be a problem. England has quality, but Southgate's excessive conservatism might cost them, and no one would bet on them if it goes to penalties. We still have to see what Flick can do, but perhaps the WC will be too soon for Germany to be contenders (then again, it might not).

France has perhaps the best squad, but there's a reason 4 of the last 5 defending champions didn't pass the first round. They don't look hungry enough, and there might be some relationship problems between the players. But there's too much talent to discard them.

Meanwhile, on the South American front, both Brazil and Argentina look elimination on the quarter finals material again, with managers who aren't top rate and overly dependent on their stars.  The other teams look even worse, with Uruguay particularly, despite having Suarez and Cavani seems to have a lot of problems scoring- only 4 in the last 8 games, 3 matches that ended in 0-0.

 

 

 

[mormont]

The thing about Italy that can't be forgotten is that they were highly dependent on a single player (Spinnazola) tactically but were able to adapt to losing him. That as much as anything makes them worthy winners to me. But I think it also makes their WC prospects interesting - will they go back to their former strategy once he's fit again? Or move on?

The other, related thing is that they had the best manager at the finals. Think Mancini can claim that (unofficial) title without much controversy.

England have a really good manager too, and the final doesn't change that. I get the grumbles about his conservatism, though I'd note that is tactical conservatism - Southgate isn't conservative in other ways. He's shown himself willing to bring in and rely on relatively inexperienced young players at the expense of faithful servants, even if they haven't been through the England youth system, and that is anything but a conservative approach. His man-management is also pretty impressive. And, well, the tactically conservative approach almost paid off. It was one penalty kick away from winning a trophy. England didn't win, but for once they didn't underachieve, either. They should do really well at the WC.

 

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yeah, but in all these tournaments, has England really beaten a team that they wouldn't or shouldn't normally? I mean Ukraine, Denmark, or Sweden, Colombia, etc, are vastly inferior. Even this Germany in the tail-end of the Low era was not really a great one. Italy meanwhile has beaten on this tournament alone better squads on paper like Belgium, Spain and arguably even England itself.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I think the distinction between team and bunch of talented players is helpful.

I thought Denmark might be a really tough nut to crack for England. The England team featured the more talented players. No doubt about it. But that togetherness and tightness of that Danish team after Eriksen collapsed in the first game and them being forced to claw their way into the k.o. stage in the final game, that's really a bonding experience for them and they grew as a team. So that was always going to be hard to beat. England managed to do that, even if it was by a very questionable penalty.

 

20 hours ago, Consigliere said:

I don't think they need to experiment that much. Flick is almost certainly going to prefer a 4-2-3-1 and I think the midfield + forward line can be predicted with a decent amount of accuracy right now - Kimmich and Goretzka in midfield; two of Werner, Sane and Gnabry as wide forwards and probably Havertz as a false 9 with Muller behind him.

Question whether Müller wants to have another go and try again in Qatar. Otherwise my guess would be Werner upfront, Gnabry and Sane wide and Havertz behind him. As there really isn't a standout center forward in Germany right now. Sane was/is getting quite a bit of stick at the moment, since he came off a rather meh season. Bayern have also upped the pressure on him by publicly speaking about next season being a make or break season for him. Goretzka is somebody whom Flick would ideally like to play, but he still is kinda injury prone. There are a few other question marks concerning that Germany team. Notably the centreback position. Right now the preferred pairing would probably be Rüdiger + Süle. Süle has also played a rather meh season, and Bayern would be willing to let him go for a good price (rumor has Chelsea being interested). He still has one year left on his contract, and he needs to rediscover form if he wants to stay there.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, but in all these tournaments, has England really beaten a team that they wouldn't or shouldn't normally? I mean Ukraine, Denmark, or Sweden, Colombia, etc, are vastly inferior. Even this Germany in the tail-end of the Low era was not really a great one. Italy meanwhile has beaten on this tournament alone better squads on paper like Belgium, Spain and arguably even England itself.

Yeah the issue is whether Southgate recognises quite how good his squad of players are, because he tends to set up as the inferior team in most big games. 
 

He’s right to do it on one level, being defensively sound is probably the best way to win these tournaments. Even this Italian side sat back against Spain and let them have the ball.

 

[Denvek]

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, but in all these tournaments, has England really beaten a team that they wouldn't or shouldn't normally? I mean Ukraine, Denmark, or Sweden, Colombia, etc, are vastly inferior. Even this Germany in the tail-end of the Low era was not really a great one. Italy meanwhile has beaten on this tournament alone better squads on paper like Belgium, Spain and arguably even England itself.

No, but the only one of those they've played at a major tournament under Southgate is Belgium (even Italy were ranked 2 places below England pre-Euros, 6th v 4th - the post-Euros/Copa America rankings aren't out yet).

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Yeah, but in all these tournaments, has England really beaten a team that they wouldn't or shouldn't normally?

I keep hearing this, but it's all too often tautological - as in, any team England beat are a team they 'should be' beating. I feel like if England had beaten Italy, I'd be hearing about the Italians' reliance on aging centre-backs and players from minor teams as evidence that they, like Germany, are a fading remnant. If they beat France, or Brazil, or Argentina, people would say (not without justification) that these teams aren't what they were and talk about the poor spirit in those camps. I don't know who England are supposed to beat before Southgate proves himself.

England, as I've noted above, were before Southgate serial under-performers.  If all he's done is get them up to the level they 'should' be at, that would be huge. I think he's done more than that, but that would still be more than many talented coaches before him have managed to do.

 

[Gorn]

23 hours ago, mormont said:

The thing about Italy that can't be forgotten is that they were highly dependent on a single player (Spinnazola) tactically but were able to adapt to losing him. That as much as anything makes them worthy winners to me. But I think it also makes their WC prospects interesting - will they go back to their former strategy once he's fit again? Or move on?

The other, related thing is that they had the best manager at the finals. Think Mancini can claim that (unofficial) title without much controversy.

England have a really good manager too, and the final doesn't change that. I get the grumbles about his conservatism, though I'd note that is tactical conservatism - Southgate isn't conservative in other ways. He's shown himself willing to bring in and rely on relatively inexperienced young players at the expense of faithful servants, even if they haven't been through the England youth system, and that is anything but a conservative approach. His man-management is also pretty impressive. And, well, the tactically conservative approach almost paid off. It was one penalty kick away from winning a trophy. England didn't win, but for once they didn't underachieve, either. They should do really well at the WC.

 

I don't think Southgate is a bad coach, but I do think he is a limited one. His approach is too cold and clinical and ignores the psychological side of coaching.

For example, a more emphatic coach would have recognized that Italy were shellshocked after an early goal, and that pressing them with continued offense could have easily resulted in a couple of more goals in the first half (see Germany-Brazil in 2014). Or that turtling is not the best way to make use of the Wembley home field advantage, since the fans need something to actually cheer. Or that shooting penalties in training is not the same thing as shooting penalties in a tournament final. Or that players who were benched for most of the tournament might not be psychologically ready to shoot penalties in the finals.