[SPOILERS] Rings of Power: "I am Sauron" "I'm Sauron" "I'm Sauron!"

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

Well to play Morgoth's advocate, this may just them trying to capitalize on trends among the viewers.

 

However there should never have been any mystery about which character is Saurian to begin with

[Le Cygne]

If anyone is interested, here's the composer's site, he talks about the Harfoot music, as well as the rest of the music:

I combined Celtic instruments such as the uilleann bagpipes, small Scottish bagpipes, Irish tin whistles, and bodhrán frame drum with West African mallet instruments called balafons to create a signature sound for the Harfoots... The Harfoot Theme winds around simple scalar movements with small jumps, representing their desire to stay hidden, while Nori’s Theme underscores her dreams of seeing the wider world with an aspirational upward perfect fifth leap.

https://bearmccreary.com/project/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power/

Also just came across this, it's the dialect coach (same one as in the LOTR movies) discussing the accents, she says she tried to stay close to Tolkien's notes:

“You want the sense we are taking the audience on a journey,” McPherson tells Inverse. “We have extraordinary artists placing you in a different world each time we move between cultures. We want that individuality acoustically, too. Hundreds are focused on the visual [elements], but here is this little team focused on making the auditory experience rich and varied, a kind of signpost as we move from place to place.”

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/amazon-lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-dialect-coach-leith-mcpherson

Edited October 12, 2022 by Le Cygne

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, farerb said:

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Pharazôn forced Míriel to marry him and took the throne of Númenor.

 

Oh, wow. I had thought she was a character invented for the show.

[karaddin]

8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

It’s worth noting that Irish travellers and Roma gypsies are not the same thing and shouldn’t be conflated. 

Certainly wasn't intending that if it came across that way from my post. All I meant is that both groups have more than enough experience being used as scape goats to be hypervigilant about negative depictions, so I'm sympathetic to that feeling.

On the Sauron mystery box - I don't think the show itself has actually played up that angle much, but the marketing has. I tend to have a lot more time for the people making the show, while the marketing is done by Amazon and I've seen comments about them being pretty shitty for multiple projects.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The marketing is really hyping the Sauron mystery box, which seems destined to backfire. If Halbrand is Sauron, then it’s clearly meant to be a huge twist. “Aha you thought he was the next Aragorn, but it turns out he was evil all along!” Except. . . I think it’s pretty clear by now that most people really don’t want to their expectations subverted and view it as less thrilling and more akin to being blue balled. The early seasons of GOT were an anomaly, and it’s a testament to GRRM’s talent that he was able to make Ned’s beheading and the Red Wedding work (the fact that he’s struggling so much with writing the next big subversions is also an indication of just how hard it is to nail these twists). Almost every show that’s tried to subvert expectations within the last decade has failed.
 

I mentioned this on a different thread, but I think that Amazon is desperately trying to court the young, Netflix-y crowd, whereas that’s simply not their audience. (It’s also why I find the complaints about how “right-wingers” hate this show tiresome. If you look at Google Trends, at least for the US, ROP is most popular in the western mountain states. It’s basically the same audience as Yellowstone). They’d be better off focusing on the characters and the feeling of wonder that’s associated with LOTR than on the mystery box bullshit.

[Farerb]

A good twist is one that is not too obvious, but still had a set up and makes narrative sense. One that will shock you, but if you go back and watch/read again, you'll notice all the clues.

[Zorral]

5 hours ago, farerb said:

people said they didn't really do this as a mystery box, it was only the fans.

Come on -- they are responding to the fans.  If this is what they like, let's amp it.  Sheesh.

[RumHam]

6 hours ago, farerb said:

But people said they didn't really do this as a mystery box, it was only the fans.

In my defense I've never seen an ad for the show. Based on the show alone I still say "who is sauron" hasn't been set up as a mystery. Have I missed any character suggesting that Sauron might be disguised or among them? The question for most of the season was "where is sauron."

The only mystery box thing is "who is the stranger?" 

[Farerb]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

The only mystery box thing is "who is the stranger?" 

"Who is Adar?"

"Who are those three witches?"

"Why do the Elves need to form an alliance with the Dwarves by spring?"

"What is this Sword Hilt?"

"What is the key?"

"Why doesn't Elendil's daughter want them to go to Middle Earth?"

I'm sure there are more that I can't recall right now, for some of them we got answers, for some we didn't.

Edited October 12, 2022 by farerb

[Myrddin]

How the hell does mithril prolong elves' lifespan? Or whatever it does to save them...

Is that really canon? I always assumed it was just Middle Earth adamantium.

 

ETA: Yes, that should be reversed. I always assumed adamantium was Marvel's mithril.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Myrddin

[sifth]

So we're two days away form the most obvious plot twist in tv history..............should be fun?

[RumHam]

17 minutes ago, farerb said:

"Who is Adar?"

"Who are those three witches?"

"Why do the Elves need to form an alliance with the Dwarves by spring?"

"What is this Sword Hilt?"

"What is the key?"

"Why doesn't Elendil's daughter want them to go to Middle Earth?"

I'm sure there are more that I can't recall right now, for some of them we got answers, for some we didn't.

Sorry, what key? The three witches I'd say are part of the stranger mystery. 

How are you defining "mystery box?" I don't think every unanswered question, or even every mystery is a "mystery box." I think it has to be something that really captures your imagination because you have no idea what's "inside." I could be wrong, it's hard to find a definition of the term and I'm not sitting through Abrams' TED talk. But like he surely didn't invent or popularize the idea of revealing information to the audience slowly, or introducing characters without immediately explaining who they are. 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

12 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Thats the point isn't it, the UK has a wide variety of accents and there are a number of inbuilt stereotypes already built into the British psyche that act as shorthand for different personality types. I guess we have just exported this across the pond into Hollywood.

Cornish/Somerset = Simple country folk, good honest but distrusting of modernity
Scottish / Northern = Gruff and dependable, hates the soft southerns with their posh accents
Birmingham / Midlander = er.. no comment
London / South east = Educated but soft and weak. 
Upper class = Beings of pure evil. 

.. oh I forgot Cockney londoners = Thieves and ruffians.. basically orcs.

Nah, cockney = a damn good time 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

've never seen an ad for the show

Nor have I.  And I have AP!  It's not as if ads for ROP show up here, where ads for shoes and  anything else I look at on the internet do.

All this so-called hyping about who is sauron seems to emanate from folks and places like this, who have been snarking about it from the git go -- lordessa, look at the title of this thread -- and who have had a hate on for ROP from before it ever put up a single episode. 

At  least that's what I see. But then, not owning a tv, and mostly going to research sites and newspapers, etc. online -- and shoes! -- that may just be me.  This is about my only 'social media' too.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Zorral

[Calibandar]

30 minutes ago, sifth said:

So we're two days away form the most obvious plot twist in tv history..............should be fun?

The problem is that we can now see that Sauron will be a new character ( which would be a great reveal) or they have Halbrand reveal himself as Sauron, which would be quite bad for a variety of reasons. I agree with Karaddin that he is better off being the character that he is. 

 

45 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

How the hell does mithril prolong elves' lifespan? Or whatever it does to save them...

Is that really canon? I always assumed it was just Middle Earth adamantium.

 

Nah thats fully invented by the show. The Rings of Power themselves helped the Elves stay in Middle Earth longer, and it literally says that once the One Ring was destroyed and the Three Rings were no more " the world turned grey to them"  and it was time to leave Middle Earth.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Calibandar

[The Bard of Banefort]

My biggest question is, what are the rings of power even for? Why did they make them in the first place? I never understood what their purpose was.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The marketing is really hyping the Sauron mystery box, which seems destined to backfire. If Halbrand is Sauron, then it’s clearly meant to be a huge twist. “Aha you thought he was the next Aragorn, but it turns out he was evil all along!” Except. . . I think it’s pretty clear by now that most people really don’t want to their expectations subverted and view it as less thrilling and more akin to being blue balled. The early seasons of GOT were an anomaly, and it’s a testament to GRRM’s talent that he was able to make Ned’s beheading and the Red Wedding work (the fact that he’s struggling so much with writing the next big subversions is also an indication of just how hard it is to nail these twists). Almost every show that’s tried to subvert expectations within the last decade has failed.
 

I mentioned this on a different thread, but I think that Amazon is desperately trying to court the young, Netflix-y crowd, whereas that’s simply not their audience. (It’s also why I find the complaints about how “right-wingers” hate this show tiresome. If you look at Google Trends, at least for the US, ROP is most popular in the western mountain states. It’s basically the same audience as Yellowstone). They’d be better off focusing on the characters and the feeling of wonder that’s associated with LOTR than on the mystery box bullshit.

I’d like the term “subverting expectations” to vanish.  There’s nothing wrong with a gripping tale, even if one can see where it’s heading.

A good twist is nice, but it should be seeded.

A good example is The Hammer, by K J Parker, one of the subtlest fantasy writers.  “And then, the bad thing happened.”

The bad thing is like a punch in the guts, but then you realise, all the clues were laid out for the reader in advance.

[Le Cygne]

27 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

My biggest question is, what are the rings of power even for? Why did they make them in the first place? I never understood what their purpose was.

This may help, scroll down to the Sauron and the Real World section. This is set in the second age, but they are changing it quite a bit since they don't have rights to some other parts of the story.

https://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/letters_evil.html

Edited October 12, 2022 by Le Cygne

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

This may help, scroll down to the Sauron section. This is set in the second age, but they are changing it quite a bit since they don't have rights to other parts of the story.

https://lotrscrapbook.bookloaf.net/ref/letters_evil.html

I think Tolkien changed his mind about the Rings of Power.

In LOTR, Gandalf sees nothing wrong with the elven rings at least, viewing them as simply about healing and knowledge.

Yet, in his letters, Tolkien writes that it was wrong of the elves to try to hold back the progress of time.  They were defying the will of God, by wanting to enjoy Middle Earth, at the same time as preventing the process of decay, which eventually results in new life.

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’d like the term “subverting expectations” to vanish.  There’s nothing wrong with a gripping tale, even if one can see where it’s heading.

A good twist is nice, but it should be seeded.

A good example is The Hammer, by K J Parker, one of the subtlest fantasy writers.  “And then, the bad thing happened.”

The bad thing is like a punch in the guts, but then you realise, all the clues were laid out for the reader in advance.

I think you could make the argument that Return of the King has a twist ending, by nature of Gollum inadvertently destroying the ring rather than Frodo. Same for Return of the Jedi, with Vader turning on the Emperor and saving Luke instead. The problem with The Last Jedi is that the answer to every mystery was “nothing.” It didn’t come up with any new and exciting answers to questions set up in the first movie, it just completely blue-balled the audience (sorry for using that phrase twice in one day lol). 
 

That seems to be one big difference between LOTR, written by a Catholic, and Star Wars, written by a Methodist with an interest in Buddhism. It may seem a little weird that Vader or Kylo Ren could be “redeemed” despite all their crimes, but the possibility for redemption is part of what makes SW an ultimately hopeful story. If Halbrand is a repentant Sauron, then his story is a nihilistic and depressing one—we’ve seen how the story ends, we know there’s no redemption for him, and we’ll have to sit through four more seasons knowing that. That’s quite a letdown for what started as a promising character. And if he was just a schemer, ala it-was-Agatha-all-along, then that opens the story up to a million little plot holes.