Fragile Bird Posted October 10, 2023 Author Share Posted October 10, 2023 I would think dead babies are bad enough without adding beheadings. However, it’s pretty clear the Hamas soldiers (or should I use terrorists?) went door to door in these border villages and dragged out citizens and murdered them in horrific manners. Maybe tortured and raped them too. Maybe beheaded people, babies and adults. I have to snort when I read comments in this thread about Israel’s war crime of blockading supplies to Gaza. Some people have expressed horror about the events happening on both sides, but not all of you. What, are the actions of the Hamas not war crimes? Or again, because Gaza is not a country, do you think they aren’t committing war crimes? Freedom fighters, and well bad things happen in the fight for freedom, and that’s just the way it is? There are statements made that definitely sound like justification for what Hamas is doing because of “decades of crimes by Israel”. What, have you never read Hamas’ 1988 charter, that states, among other things, “The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realization of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him’. (that came from an article from the Atlantic that popped up in my news stream, go look it up) Hamas later softened some of their statements, but as far as I know they still don’t believe Israel has a right to exist. Hamas’ stated goal is to end the nation of Israel and kill every Jew they can. And yes, Israel has done terrible things to Palestinians in response. Neither side is justified, both act like hell-hounds, but if Israel ever said that their goal is to kill every Palestinian they can and wipe out Palestine as a nation, I missed that announcement. Once upon a time 200,000 residents of Gaza crossed the border every day to work in Israel. Do you know what I remember about that time? Week after week after week Palestinians strapped bombs to their bodies and blew themselves up, usually in locations where they could kill as many Jews as possible, because their goal was to kill all the Jews. How many times did I read stories about bits and pieces of bodies being picked up at the market, or at the restaurants, or outside a synagogue? And what about the Olympics, and at Israeli embassies, or at US military locations? And the terrible price to stop the bombers was closing the border. What did you expect Israel to do? Make a corporate decision that having cheap labor at the cost of 10 or 20 or 50 deaths every 10 days was okay? I understand that Palestinians are actually very secular, among the most secular of all Arab nations. But Hamas wants an Islamic state. There are other Arab states where citizens want the choice of being secular, but their governments want Islamic states. Who exactly do you think is going to interfere to change things? Another Arab state? Fat chance of that. The EU? Because they haven’t suffered enough terrorist attacks? The Chinese, who are busy trying to wipe out Moslems in their country? The Russians, who learned a hard lesson in Afghanistan? An African nation? Which one? Somebody from South America, because they don’t have enough problems? Indonesia? Pakistan? I don’t see anything or anyone interfering here. And I go back to my statement from pages ago, that this is a mass suicide event by Hamas, because no one can figure out why they are doing it. Relic, Bael's Bastard and Northern Sword 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: It has everything to do with it. Jews have a long history of violence against them and disregarding that completely ignores why they feel the way the do. I don't handwave away anything, but regarding the religious freedom in Israel in 2023, it doesn't bear any meaningful significance. If it does, it shouldn't. Historical grudges, as per you too, aren't a good thing to hold onto. My nation too holds historical grudges very close to their heart, semi-rightful. It is mass-communicated to this day (WW1 stuff), and a central idea to right-wing propaganda. That's what they're good for, sadly. 9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Are you going to claim… with a straight face… that Russia… is an “anti-imperial” power? Exercise irony. Plus, the subject was the USA, not Russia or any of its predecessors. Edited October 10, 2023 by Daeron the Daring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said: Nothing you say here conflicts with what I said. Nowhere did I say this was acceptable or righteous or excusable, but we have to always bear in mind that the media has an incentive to play up the atrocities of the Palestinians and downplay those of the Israelis because of each side's relative proximity to power. Hamas' escalation is the natural result of Israel's apartheid polices, even Israeli outlets like Haaretz, which would hardly be considered pro-Hamas, has laid the blame for this at the feet of Bibi and his right wing allies. Respectfully Grim, No. I don't agree. Hamas launched a surprise attack on civilians. If you want to say, in the past - this happened first. You'll go back millennia or two in this part of the world. Today. Right now, this escalation started because of a surprise attack which killed a thousand people. When I was in school, I was attacked by another student. If today, I broke into his house and assaulted his wife and kid. Do you think I could use the excuse that 10 years ago he attacked me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Are you going to claim… with a straight face… that Russia… is an “anti-imperial” power? I think we'll get "it's just what you have to expect." The same way, the Scottish Greens' former Convernor, Margaret Chapman, wants us to place the rapes "in context." Relic and Ser Scot A Ellison 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said: I don't handwave away anything, but regarding the religious freedom in Israel in 2023, it doesn't bear any meaningful significance. If it does, it shouldn't. Historical grudges, as per you too, aren't a good thing to hold onto. My nation too holds historical grudges very close to their heart, semi-rightful. It is mass-communicated to this day (WW1 stuff), and a central idea to right-wing propaganda. That's what they're good for. Excercise irony. Plus, the subject was the USA, not Russia or any of its predecessors. I think that Jews have quite a good reason, in the light of history, to believe people who say that they want to kill them. dog-days and Bael's Bastard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Just now, SeanF said: I think that Jews have quite a good reason, in the light of history, to believe people who say that they want to kill them. Remind me why does any palestinian want to kill an israeli in 2023. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Hamas are simply Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, in the modern era. There are people who like killing Jews, and for whom ideology is a just a flag of convenience for what really turns them on. Murder, torture, and rape. Bael's Bastard and Northern Sword 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Daeron the Daring said: Remind me why does any palestinian want to kill an israeli in 2023. Because they enjoy it? People who strip a young women naked, rape her, break her bones, shoot her in the head, then parade her body through the streets while shouting "Allahu Akbar", are getting off on it. Edited October 10, 2023 by SeanF Northern Sword 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 10 minutes ago, SeanF said: I think we'll get "it's just what you have to expect." The same way, the Scottish Greens' former Convernor, Margaret Chapman, wants us to place the rapes "in context." Is she claiming, with a straight face, that there is a context that justifies or successfully offers apologia for… rape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 3 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: Respectfully Grim, No. I don't agree. Hamas launched a surprise attack on civilians. If you want to say, in the past - this happened first. You'll go back millennia or two in this part of the world. Today. Right now, this escalation started because of a surprise attack which killed a thousand people. When I was in school, I was attacked by another student. If today, I broke into his house and assaulted his wife and kid. Do you think I could use the excuse that 10 years ago he attacked me. What a terrible analogy. This isn't a matter of there was one bombing a decade ago, this is a sustained, calculated oppression of Palestinians by Israel. A better analogy would be if when you were in school, you were attacked by a classmate who then trapped you in a cage and periodically deprived you of food (Remember that time that the official Israeli policy was to put the Palestinians "on a diet"?), left you with water that 96% of the time is undrinkable and any time you rattled the cage threw rocks at you. Oh, and they kicked your family out of their houses and moved their family members in. Now imagine the same person (or family) did to you for generations. If we use this analogy, which is much more reminiscent of what has happened in Israel, I say it would still be unacceptable to go and slaughter their family, but at least I could understand why you did it even if I don't accept it as legitimate or excusable violence. dbergkvist, Crixus and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) [mod] Folks, I will close this thread if people are going to start an atrocity contest. Please do not attempt to explicitly describe these acts and re-traumatise people just because you can't keep your head in an emotional argument. If you need to cool off, that can be arranged. [/mod] As for the wider 'point', here, massacres do not justify massacres and war crimes do not justify war crimes. On either side. It's as simple as that. Edited October 10, 2023 by mormont Northern Sword, Craving Peaches, Daeron the Daring and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 25 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said: I don't handwave away anything, but regarding the religious freedom in Israel in 2023, it doesn't bear any meaningful significance. If it does, it shouldn't. Historical grudges, as per you too, aren't a good thing to hold onto. It's not a grudge, though some do hold one. It's a legitimate fear of being massacred, which just happened. Bael's Bastard and Padraig 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 25 minutes ago, SeanF said: There are people who like killing Jews, and for whom ideology is a just a flag of convenience for what really turns them on. Murder, torture, and rape. That's such a poor answer. Some of the posts on this thread have been terrible but most people have acknowledged that the Israel/Palestine question is not simple. So if somebody asks why did X do something, responding that "they wanted to", is, to be kind, lazy. Crixus and Craving Peaches 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Padraig said: That's such a poor answer. Some of the posts on this thread have been terrible but most people have acknowledged that the Israel/Palestine question is not simple. So if somebody asks why did X do something, responding that "they wanted to", is, to be kind, lazy. NVM Edited October 10, 2023 by SeanF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: It's not a grudge, though some do hold one. It's a legitimate fear of being massacred, which just happened. It can be anything, but a reason to denying people their basic human rights. We agreed on that. Hence why it is insignificant as a reason to denying people what they deserve as human beings, because just about everything is. The "there is no justification for violation of human rights" is a clear cut stance, and applies to all scenarios, including that of this weekend. Violence is a (by)product of violence. Edited October 10, 2023 by Daeron the Daring Craving Peaches 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 This thread could very well serve as a microcosm. Its all fucked. Rippounet, Craving Peaches and JGP 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 Syria has launched missiles towards Israel, but apparently all fell in open countryside near the border. Israel has not responded so far. The threat of wider contagion remains real, especially with groups in Syria, Lebanon, Iran and elsewhere probably themselves divided between those wanting to support the action in Gaza and cooler heads urging restraint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 For those who think that accounts of what Hamas actually did at Kfar Aza have been exaggerated, there is Jeremy Bowen's report on the BBC website. The BBC is pretty reliable, and honest, in its reporting of events. Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said: I have to snort when I read comments in this thread about Israel’s war crime of blockading supplies to Gaza. Really? You find it funny? 80% of Palestinian people in there are dependent on the aid now being blocked. No one is saying this makes what Hamas is doing okay, it doesn't. This does not mean we cannot also draw attention to the plight of innocent Palestinians. I have seen multiple claims that the people of Gaza 'deserve it' because they voted for Hamas. Half of the people in there are children who would not have been of age to vote... 1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said: And the terrible price to stop the bombers was closing the border. But they didn't just close the border. They allow settlers and the IDF to attack Palestinians with impunity. Just prior to the attack a Palestinian village was burned down. IDF stood by and did nothing. Stuff like the attack on Israel has been happening to the Palestinians for decades and no one did anything despite the warnings of Human Rights agencies. The measures Israel subject the Palestinians to cannot possibly be justified unless you are claiming all of them, including the children, are on the level of the Hamas extremists. These measures were not intended to solve the issue. Investing in Gaza and treating the Palestinians like human beings would likely drastically undercut Hamas support. People with good quality of life usually don't join terrorist groups. A reason is not the same as an excuse. 1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said: And I go back to my statement from pages ago, that this is a mass suicide event by Hamas, because no one can figure out why they are doing it. Supposedly it was to interrupt diplomacy between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Crixus and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 7 minutes ago, SeanF said: The BBC is pretty reliable, and honest, in its reporting of events. Aside from the Scottish Independence Referendum... dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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