Israel-Hamas war 3

[Luzifer's right hand]

19 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I think this has already been shown to be incorrect. We've asked several times what the goal of Hamas is here and how it makes no sense - but that's true only if you frame it militarily.

What Hamas appears to have gained is massive antagonism towards Israel from the Arab and Muslim world, along with a fairly large amount of awareness in the US and European world. Iran, Syria, Lebanon and even Egypt are now threatening to get involved almost entirely because of Israel's reaction to hamas's brutal terrorist attack against civilians. Those countries had been largely quiet for years about Palestinians- and now they're talking about direct military action? The US is bringing two carrier groups into the region to try and de-sscalats, and now they're targets too.

That's potentially a very good result for Hamas.

This is very much what was the goal of 911 - arab and muslim unification against a specific foe, except it was stated more publicly. I think it is pretty reasonable to assume one of the secondary goals of hamas was to get Israel to overreact and provoke. And so far that's been very successful.

 

The carrier strike groups are there to deter attacks on Israel by those countries. Israel can escalate as much as it wants.

I also believe that the support Palestinians have on the street in the US and Europe will not sway governments as people chant slogans that are seen as calling for the extermination of all Jews in Israel at many of those protests.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I hope people realize that Al-Jazeera is state-funded by Qatar. Qatar has a notorious relationship with Hamas. Indeed, two of Hamas's top leaders share something in common with Al-Jazeera: they too are based in Doha, the capital of Qatar.

 

I hope you have as keen an interest in the financial backings of the media you consume.

 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And yet the majority of comments refer to "civilians" in Gaza while never calling the dead in Israel "civilians." 

What the hell? Yes they have, it's been said a hundred times, by almost everyone. Stop with this selective hearing, it's getting old.

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

I hope you have as keen an interest in the financial backings of the media you consume.

Of course, as should everyone.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

 

The carrier strike groups are there to deter attacks on Israel by those countries. Israel can escalate as much as it wants.

No, it really can't. The US is putting those ships there to deter attacks and reduce the chance of escalation - I agree. That doesn't mean it will succeed. And the US had to bring in a second carrier group because things were escalating so quickly and badly.

Plus, now the US has two very juicy targets in the region. US naval forces have long been targets of opportunity and atrocity.

I think you are seriously underestimating the potential for damage and the outcry that is going on in these countries. 

2 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

I also believe that the support Palestinians have on the street in the US and Europe will not sway governments as people chant slogans that are seen as calling for the extermination of all Jews in Israel at many of those protestes.

To be clear I don't think that was a particular goal of hamas, only a small byproduct. The main thing it does is it increases the spread of that message across the world and gives it more legitimacy. I don't think hamas is expecting any of the western nations to turn their back on Israel.

Another goal is to replace netanyahu and that government with one that is more amenable to Palestinian goals. And this, too, appears to be working.

[Ran]

I'll eat my hat if any of these national governments actually intervene. Hezbollah and jihadists in the hills of Syria are one thing, but mostly this is performative saber-rattling purely for domestic consumption.

[Luzifer's right hand]

21 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

No, it really can't. The US is putting those ships there to deter attacks and reduce the chance of escalation - I agree. That doesn't mean it will succeed. And the US had to bring in a second carrier group because things were escalating so quickly and badly.

Plus, now the US has two very juicy targets in the region. US naval forces have long been targets of opportunity and atrocity.

I think you are seriously underestimating the potential for damage and the outcry that is going on in these countries. 

To be clear I don't think that was a particular goal of hamas, only a small byproduct. The main thing it does is it increases the spread of that message across the world and gives it more legitimacy. I don't think hamas is expecting any of the western nations to turn their back on Israel.

Another goal is to replace netanyahu and that government with one that is more amenable to Palestinian goals. And this, too, appears to be working.

Those countries tried destroying Israel when it was much weaker. They failed. What else can they do?

The outcry might hurt trade of course. Apart from that they seem irrelevant apart from offering terrorist groups refugee which they are doing anyway(either voluntarily or involuntarily because they don't control parts of their own territory).

Have there been any successful attacks against the US Navy since the USS Cole 23 years ago? 

Netanyahu kinda failed because he did allow outside factions to support Gaza and Hamas. I don't find it likely that any government in the near future will make the same mistake.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'll eat my hat if any of these national governments actually intervene. Hezbollah and jihadists in the hills of Syria are one thing, but mostly this is performative saber-rattling purely for domestic consumption.

And how will those countries normalize relations with Israel? 

I don't think there's a great chance either - if I were a betting man I'd say the biggest risk is from Syria mostly as a Russian proxy - but having those countries openly decry Israel has its own value too.

[Bael's Bastard]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article-magazine/confirming-the-worst-hamas-atrocities-where-israel-identifies-the-dead/0000018b-3313-dff1-a5eb-ffffee6f0000

[DanteGabriel]

4 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Just returned from vacation but these are my 2 cents:

Hamas brutally attacked Israel. Hamas rules in Gaza. Israel can bring war to Gaza.

this it what would happen in any conflict, one group attacks another and is attacked in turn.

I have no idea why somehow in Israels case, this seems unjust. Yes civilians, which have not elected the Hamas but are ruled by them, will suffer. As in any conflict.

but this is always the case in war (yes, war is bad, but this is always true)

Why are so many on this board denying the right of the Jews to self defense? should they just take the attack and be silent?

Please everyone, check if not deep inside , some of these discussions are antisemitic .

 

 

 

This is a really thorough job of engaging in just about every logical fallacy and poor faith accusation that most other posters have been really careful to avoid over many contentious exchanges.

[fionwe1987]

There's something awful about sorrow that you know is going to be dwarfed however this conflict resolves.

Anger at Hamas and the Israeli government are justified.

But even more justified, for me, and more necessary, is anger at the colonial history that has left us here. Anger that the colonial powers who engineered this shitshow still sit on their ill gotten power and direct the contours of this conflict.

None of the people alive in these lands perpetrated the horrors of colonialism. But the world continues to be structured by it, and till there is a reckoning, thousands of more lives will be lost, far from these halls of power where reckoning with the past is never done, because any understanding of that past shows that the global political order of today is rooted in centuries of destruction and damage, and is therefore wrong.  

That there has not been, and continues to not be, accounting for this, and no real accounting can or should leave global political power divvied up as it is today.

Till that changes, this is what we have to look forward to, and not just in Gaza 

[JGP]

[weary sigh]

 

[Craving Peaches]

Still no sign of any of the remaining hostages being released. I am fearing the worst at this point, that they are already dead or will never be released.

[Dofs]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Fair enough, but doesn’t it go w/o saying? Israel is a recognised state not a terrorist organisation. It’s different in Gaza, where you have both a terrorist organisation and a civilian population.

I feel like the play with definitions and semantics muddy the real picture here. There is this perception that the whole situation is about a terrorist organisation attacking an independent state and that state is in turn killing civilians in order to get to this terrorist organisation. I feel like this is not what is factually happening.

Factually Gaza is also an independent state. And Hamas is their actual government. It's not simply a "terrorist organisation" it's an actual state body. So really it's a war between two countries - Israel and Gaza, and it, imo, should be viewed as such factually.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Dofs

[JGP]

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Still no sign of any of the remaining hostages being released. I am fearing the worst at this point, that they are already dead or will never be released.

Hamas won't release them willingly. 

 

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

Factually Gaza is also an independent state. And Hamas is their actual government. It's not simply a "terrorist organisation" it's an actual state body. So really it's a war between two countries - Israel and Gaza, and it, imo, should be viewed as such factually.

Nah.

[fionwe1987]

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

Factually Gaza is also an independent state. And Hamas is their actual government. It's not simply a "terrorist organisation" it's an actual state body. So really it's a war between two countries - Israel and Gaza, and it, imo, should be viewed as such factually.

Factually, you need to change the definition of state and independent to apply either of those terms to Gaza. 

It's a 2 million person prison, and Israel controls it. Ignoring that, and the moral implications of that, won't help anyone resolve this situation. All it will do is allow the Israeli politicians who created this situation to use the tragedy of the past few days to their advantage.

 

[Dofs]

Just now, fionwe1987 said:

Factually, you need to change the definition of state and independent to apply either of those terms to Gaza. 

It's a 2 million person prison, and Israel controls it. Ignoring that, and the moral implications of that, won't help anyone resolve this situation. All it will do is allow the Israeli politicians who created this situation to use the tragedy of the past few days to their advantage.

 

Nope, it's an independent state and Hamas controls it, Israel simply blockades it. If USA decided to blockade Canada, Canada will not suddenly start being controlled by US.

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Nope, it's an independent state and Hamas controls it, Israel simply blockades it. If USA decided to blockade Canada, Canada will not suddenly start being controlled by US.

Well, that's nonsensical. You cannot both say that the blockade is because Hamas isn't the legitimate government of Gaza, and then treat it like the legitimate government of Gaza when convenient.

[Ran]

21 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Israel controls it

Always ignoring Egypt. The Gaza territory has two borders. And it should again be noted that not only do Israel and Egypt maintain a blockade, but historically the Palestinian Authority has supported (and at times insisted on) the blockade due to Hamas.

If it is a prison, it is one of Hamas's making, and they like it that way.

It is not a state, though, I agree with that. But it has a government, which is Hamas, and its goal is the destruction of Israel.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Ran

[Dofs]

5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Well, that's nonsensical. You cannot both say that the blockade is because Hamas isn't the legitimate government of Gaza, and then treat it like the legitimate government of Gaza when convenient.

I am not sure what are you responding to.

I've claimed that Hamas is the factual government of Gaza. What are you arguing about?

[JGP]

1 minute ago, Dofs said:

I've claimed that Hamas is the factual government of Gaza. What are you arguing about?

You've also claimed it's two independent countries at war.