Israel-Hamas war 3

[Tears of Lys]

It's my impression from what I've heard on the news (various sources) that Israel has already written off the hostages as lost.   At least, that's what some Israeli general has said.  (Wish I had noticed his name.) 

 

[GrimTuesday]

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

What is the purpose of negotiating with Hamas? If the negotiations will lead to them giving up Gaza, disarming, and disbanding, cool. Because nothing short of that makes strategic sense. Hamas must be destroyed.

Israel has released hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for captured IDF soldiers, this is something that has happened with some regularity in the past. But I guess you should tell the families of those who are being held in Gaza that their loved ones have to die.

Let's stop pretending that Hamas can be eliminated through military means other than actually going full genocide. For every Hamas fighter that they kill, they will create two future members of Hamas or an even more radical group. Hamas isn't just a fighting force, it is part of an idea, the idea of Palestinian freedom and Israel will never be able to stamp that out until there is not a single Palestinian drawing breath anywhere in the world.

9 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

No, I don't think so. If the hostages die that's on Hamas, unless Israel actively bombs them or something. There are some places where I"m going to blame Israel for reacting and being overly zealous and not cautious enough, but in the case of hostages - no. 

Hamas took them. Hamas has full control over what to do with them. If Israel doesn't negotiate (and to be clear I do not believe they should negotiate at all) then Hamas killing them is 100% on Hamas.

This, btw, is not a matter of going 'all cowboy'. It is to make it clear that there is no actual value in taking hostages. If Hamas wants prisoners released they'll have to go another way. As long as it is perceived that you can take hostages to do prisoner swaps they will continue to do exactly that. That isn't Israel's longstanding policy, mind you - they'll do a lot of things including prisoner swaps - but as long as they keep doing that they'll keep having hostages.

Ok, so now the hostages are dead, congratulations, we are no closer to peace and have only hurt the families of those who have been murdered by Hamas. The solution here isn't to just make it pointless to take hostages, it is to address the reason why hostages are being taken. These are not acts of god, this is the result of decades of choices on both sides that have perpetuated a cycle of violence that we are seeing the result of now.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Israel has released hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for captured IDF soldiers, this is something that has happened with some regularity in the past. But I guess you should tell the families of those who are being held in Gaza that their loved ones have to die.

Let's stop pretending that Hamas can be eliminated through military means other than actually going full genocide. For every Hamas fighter that they kill, they will create two future members of Hamas or an even more radical group. Hamas isn't just a fighting force, it is part of an idea, the idea of Palestinian freedom and Israel will never be able to stamp that out until there is not a single Palestinian drawing breath anywhere in the world.

Ok, so now the hostages are dead, congratulations, we are no closer to peace and have only hurt the families of those who have been murdered by Hamas. The solution here isn't to just make it pointless to take hostages, it is to address the reason why hostages are being taken. These are not acts of god, this is the result of decades of choices on both sides that have perpetuated a cycle of violence that we are seeing the result of now.

Your Hamas apologetics this entire time have been absolutely disgusting. Hamas' "idea" is literal genocide of the Jews. They do not care about Palestinian freedom. They are devoted to murder and genocide of Jews. Full fucking stop.

Some of us have family or friends who were murdered or are held hostage, and know from the history of Hamas better than to hope that they will ever make it out alive. Shalit was a solitary example.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Zorral]

We are still stuck with the masculine brain in the ancient world, the Dark Ages, the 19th century, with their foolish demands of honor and courage, which demands they sacrifice everything for their hurt pride.

I don't mean only Israel,or Palestinians, or Russians, or magarats, or BREXITers, etc.  Sigh.

[Relic]

2,800+ dead in Gaza, some 1000 children among them. 

1,400 Israeli deaths reported thus far. 

No idea about about the number of dead Hamas fighters, but fuck them anyway. 

4,200 souls gone in just over a week, and much more death to come. Awful. If there truly is a God than It must be very proud. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Relic

[Bael's Bastard]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

2,800+ dead in Gaza, some 1000 children among them. 

1,400 Israeli death reported thus far. 

No idea about about the number of dead Hamas fighters, but fuck them anyway. 

4,200 souls gone in just over a week, and much more death to come. Awful. If there truly is a God he must be very proud. 

At least 1500 dead Hamas fighters have been counted in Israel. The number of dead in Gaza almost certainly includes significant number of Hamas fighters (it has in every previous conflict), though sadly many perhaps most of the dead are civilians.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Craving Peaches]

2 minutes ago, Relic said:

If there truly is a God than It must be very proud. 

As someone else said, why can't God come down and fix its mess?

[Relic]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

As someone else said, why can't God come down and fix its mess?

Cuz God is just an excuse for men to murder each other.

[Bael's Bastard]

Israel is a secular country (despite the best efforts of Netanyahu's current allies) re-established by irreligious socialists. Hamas may want to genocide the Jews for their God, but it is disingenuous to portray this as a conflict between two religious beliefs. Jews are an ancient ethnic and religious group, but their indigeneity to the land is no more or pess dependant on religion than the indigeneity of America's indigenous. Furthermore, far more Jews are tied to Israel than are tied to Jewish religion, let alone orthodox interpretations of it. Zionist Jews, which a majority of Jews in the US and the world are, are not evangelicals. False equivalency.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Bael's Bastard]

Antisemitism is so baked into European and MENA cultures that many don't even realize when they are engaging in it. It's why less than 1.5 million Jews remain in Europe and MENA combined with the exception of Israel.

[Maithanet]

I assume that Hamas took the hostages specifically to force Israel to act quickly and violently.  If Israel were to take a very measured approach, making statements that "the criminals will not escape justice" while they organize their intelligence and military on how best to strike back, that is the exact opposite of what Hamas wants.  Taking hostages makes such an approach even more unlikely (and it wasn't very likely to begin with). 

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Israel has released hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for captured IDF soldiers, this is something that has happened with some regularity in the past. But I guess you should tell the families of those who are being held in Gaza that their loved ones have to die.

Let's stop pretending that Hamas can be eliminated through military means other than actually going full genocide. For every Hamas fighter that they kill, they will create two future members of Hamas or an even more radical group. Hamas isn't just a fighting force, it is part of an idea, the idea of Palestinian freedom and Israel will never be able to stamp that out until there is not a single Palestinian drawing breath anywhere in the world.

Yeah, that's not really accurate or historical. I guess you're technically right that it can't be wiped out, but who cares? Making Hamas effectively an impotent group is fine. And that can be done militarily.

A more important point is that unless the situation in the area improves wiping out Hamas only delays the inevitable, as another terrorist group with similar aims will emerge. But dealing with Hamas right now can be done militarily. 

15 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Ok, so now the hostages are dead, congratulations, we are no closer to peace and have only hurt the families of those who have been murdered by Hamas. The solution here isn't to just make it pointless to take hostages, it is to address the reason why hostages are being taken. These are not acts of god, this is the result of decades of choices on both sides that have perpetuated a cycle of violence that we are seeing the result of now.

You have to do both, I'm afraid. And an alternative - of releasing thousands of Hamas members in prison (because Hamas doesn't want just random people, they want Hamas members) is not a great choice either. How many people are going to be hurt by them going forward? 

I agree that that isn't the only thing you should do. But you should not, as a rule, reward those who will take hostages. 

[Relic]

Just now, Maithanet said:

Taking hostages makes such an approach even more unlikely (and it wasn't very likely to begin with). 

Tragically ironic, given that its very unlikely any remaining hostages will survive for much longer. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

20 minutes ago, Relic said:

Cuz God is just an excuse for men to murder each other.

Ding ding ding.

Ignoring that polytheism makes more sense than monotheism, if God was real she'd just be like a kid looking at her ant farm, curious to see what they do. But that's a different conversation. 

[fionwe1987]

31 minutes ago, Zorral said:

We are still stuck with the masculine brain in the ancient world, the Dark Ages, the 19th century, with their foolish demands of honor and courage, which demands they sacrifice everything for their hurt pride.

I don't mean only Israel,or Palestinians, or Russians, or magarats, or BREXITers, etc.  Sigh.

Yeah it's amazing to me that this system of thrusts and repostes, standing on foundations of pride and honor on both sides, is still held up as the "only way". 

The data on if such strategies work in the long term has a clear answer: no. Yet we keep on because anything else is apparently too idealistic. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by fionwe1987

[Zorral]

32 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

their indigeneity to the land i

The Canaanites, the Phoenicians ,archeology etc. may have some words on this statement.  

BTW, why are people ignoring the fact that a very large and significant population in Israel are adamantly against this policy of Bibi and his Likud and other cohorts?

[Zorral]

48 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

hey are devoted to murder and genocide of Jews

And the bibi authority of Israel is equally devoted to the genocide and disappearance of the Palestinians.

If you have the guts please read Jonathan Katz's run-down on this from the 1920's by those who were working to get a Jewish state.  Look up what Likud means.  

There are many reasons to issue, Shakespeare's, "A plague on both your houses."

Everybody has blood on their hands going back to the beginning of time.  Everyone's waded to the eyebrows in blood.  And that includes the Hebrews as much as Americans and Mongols.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

BTW, why are people ignoring the fact that a very large and significant population in Israel are adamantly against this policy of Bibi and his Likud and other cohorts?

We've already discussed that many Israelis blame Netanyahu and his government for failing to prevent the attack, and a bare majority believes he should resign... after the war.

But the actual war itself is very widely supported in Israel, which is in keeping with past conflicts with Hamas in Gaza.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

And the bibi authority of Israel is equally devoted to the genocide and disappearance of the Palestinians.

No, it really isn't. Knock that equivalence shit off. You do yourself no favors. 

This is really illustrated by a simple thought experiment: could Israel nuke Gaza? Could they simply wipe out virtually everyone there with the capabilities they have? If the answer is 'yes' then no, they are not equally devoted. 

 

[fionwe1987]

With nukes, the only kind of assurance that merits any attention is a policy of no first use. 

Anything else is somewhat ludicrous to parade around as moral superiority.

I don't believe Israelis as a majority want to eliminate all Palestinians. But if you're going to argue that the current leadership in Israel doesn't have extremists who are circling the language of wanton destruction and revenge, I don't know what to say.

There is no equivalence between Hamas and all of Israel. But if you're going to argue there's a big moral distinction between Bibi's government and Hamas, you've lost me. 

And, in terms of solutions, just as we should accord Israeli's the freedom of kicking out Netanyahu and his buddies when they want to, so should we allow Palestinians the chance to show Hamas the door. Which requires them to have freedom, an actual state, and assurances that their choice isn't constrained by what another country will find convenient. 

In such an election, I do see Hamas losing. In the success of such an elected government, I do so see Hamas losing influence and power. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by fionwe1987