Israel - Hamas War V

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

There seems to be an idea that anti-Zionist Jews (in the sense of Jews who wish that Israel ceased to exist), are a big strand of Jewish opinion, rather than the vanishingly small minority that they are, in reality.

 

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The terminology is getting strained. I was talking to a friend who says they are considered anti-Zionist by some more hard-line family members, but only because they favour the two-state solution and an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank (or, if they remain, with correspondingly valuable land swaps with the potential Palestinian state). The goalposts seem to be moving on the terminology.

 

34 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Nobody who supports Israel's existence is anti-Zionist, nor would most such people self-identify as such. 

...

Anti-Zionist Jews, Jews who self-identify as anti-Zionist, are a very small minority of Jews in the US and the World. 

My reaction to this is the same as Wert's - my familiarity with that phrase is absolutely not about people that don't want Israel to exist. This group in Sydney uses it to describe themselves

https://x.com/tzedekcollectiv?t=qmR6Xey-Jrr5D95P_PRhqA&s=09

And I'm friends with one of them - she's very outspoken and critical of Israels actions but absolutely supports it's existence, she's from Israel and most of her close family still live there. Do you see that description and think that's what that group actually wants, or do you accept that they're using it to mean something else?

38 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And that's where my frustration roots itself. I've had to think about this since the time I literally have had memories. Being Jewish is part of the construct of my entire identity. It's bothersome to put it mildly to hear you say learning in midlife that you're Jewish and that now you're having the same thoughts, in part because I had to learn how to get over them as a kid.

I'm a little confused why this bothers you so much, shouldn't the fact that this is so scary and world changing for someone to realize even an adult actually validate the fear you've dealt with? It doesn't strike me as invalidating in any way.

If you just mean that you're jealous of getting to grow up without the weight of that knowledge then I understand but I don't think that is what you're saying?

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

There seems to be an idea that anti-Zionist Jews (in the sense of Jews who wish that Israel ceased to exist), are a big strand of Jewish opinion, rather than the vanishingly small minority that they are, in reality.

It really depends on how you define "anti-Zionism." Rejection of religious principles and support for more secularism in Israel is a form of anti-Zionism in my eyes ; it won't question the existence of Israel itself, but it will define it very differently. And what I alluded to earlier is that secular Jews who are too critical of Israeli policies can easily be called "non-Jewish" and worse by very religious Jews, even if they live in Israel.
This being said, it's a minority opinion, and opposition to religious Zionism had been waning in recent years - not growing. Still, it's far from irrelevant, if only because, historically, the kibbutzim can be places where such opposition is strong. I read recently that in one of those that fell prey to the Hamas attacks, there was about 5% of people voting for Netanyahu. It's something to bear in mind when we think of the victims and hostages.

[Rippounet]

These are the words of Maoz Inon, who lost his parents on October 7:

Quote

The only thing that brings me some consolation is that they died as they lived: together. And one thing I am certain of is that they would never have wanted to be avenged.

[When they settled in Netiv HaAsara thirty years ago] my parents regularly saw Palestinian friends, and many people from Gaza came to work in the orchards of Netiv HaAsara. My father had a strong connection with the Negev Bedouins. For the past week, I have been receiving messages of condolences from them non-stop.

[Does he wish Hamas destroyed?] The only way to eliminate Hamas is by giving hope. Hope is the only truly effective weapon we have. And this hope can only be based on the principle of a shared land and society, a principle I have been advocating for 25 years.

I'm not an intellectual; I didn't even finish high school. But the only thing that keeps me from falling apart in these dark times is to look at history. Could the current relationship between France and Germany have been imaginable in 1945? Who would have believed that at this very moment, Israelis would seek refuge in Berlin?

I sense that you find me naive. But I'm not naive, even though I believe in the power of optimism. The real naivety is thinking that we will solve anything by waging war.

I'm not a politician but the urgency is to freeze the situation. Let's build a coalition. Let's build a strategy. But let's not wait for more death and pain. We've had enough on both sides. It seems possible for everyone to acknowledge each other's sorrow and show compassion. I believe I am staying true to my parents by pleading with the world to help us make peace.

Among the victims were Hayim Katzman, who testified for Breaking the Silence (an association of former soldiers opposed to occupation of the West Bank) or Vivian Silver, who volunteered for Road to Recovery (transporting sick Palestinians to Israeli hospitals) and co-founded Women Wage Peace.

These are the words of Avner Gvaryahou, the current leader of Breaking the Silence:

Quote

The question is how to hold onto our humanity when inhumane acts have been committed. It's clear that October 7th changed everything. But it's precisely because our values were gutted that day that they must remain our compass. In this light, it's evident that nothing good can come from a purely military or force-based response. The only way forward must be political.
The responsibility for the killings remains with the murderers. No person with humanity can excuse the atrocities committed. However, it doesn't mean that there isn't also a fault of this government, which concentrated its energy and our military in the occupied West Bank. Some in this government want to capitalize on this moment when we haven't even finished identifying, burying, and mourning our dead. They seek to exploit the shock to advance their agenda, which involves further colonization and establishing an apartheid state from the Jordan River to the sea, or even reconquering Gaza. Since October 7th, there have been dozens of Palestinians killed in the West Bank, people assaulted, and others forcibly displaced from their land.

https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/191023/en-israel-les-militants-anti-occupation-veulent-garder-le-cap-malgre-la-douleur/commentaires

[Troyaorromee]

5 hours ago, Relic said:

women and children. 

You value men's life less than any other? *uck off.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Troyaorromee

[Varysblackfyre321]

Perhaps Elon musk is terrified to take this obvious anti-semitism down because the person doing it is a culture warrior leader amongst the reactionary right.

He should at least look into it.

Edit I will disagree with Hassan slightly—a lot of American leaders actively want to the Jews dead and in hell through bringing about the apocalypse.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

45 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

t really depends on how you define "anti-Zionism." Rejection of religious principles and support for more secularism in Israel is a form of anti-Zionism in my eyes ;

And some people’s eye it legit is jew wanting to end israel completely and hatred of Jews in general. Malicious, bad faith actors do cloak their insidious agenda in rhetoric espoused by more savory people.

Its not helped when Israel conflates Zionism with just being fine with Jewish people existing in a way to motte and Bailey their critics.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Perhaps Elon musk is terrified to take this obvious anti-semitism down because the person doing it is a culture warrior leader amongst the reactionary right.

He should at least look into it.

fElon has no interest in stopping antisemitism, or any other type of vile & disgusting bigotry or any for of hate speech, for that matter. 

EX-Twitter is just as he wants it to be and should be avoided like the plague. 

[kissdbyfire]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-israel-declined-receive-two-hostages-it-intended-release-2023-10-21/

How does this make any sense?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-israel-declined-receive-two-hostages-it-intended-release-2023-10-21/

How does this make any sense?

Hamas says. We have to be skeptical.

[Heartofice]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm getting a sense that Channel 4 is extremely pro-Palestine

You wouldn’t be wrong.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hamas says. We have to be skeptical.

So I've heard. Still, they did release 2 hostages. They say "humanitarian grounds"... it could be elderly people w/ a chronic illness that requires daily medication. It could be young people w/ a chronic disease w/ the same type of requirement. I get that no one should trust a terrorist organisation, but at the same time I don't understand dismissing the offer out of hand. Shouldn't an attempt be made at least? 

How does one explain this attitude to the families of the hostages? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I get that no one should trust a terrorist organisation, but at the same time I don't understand dismissing the offer out of hand. Shouldn't an attempt be made at least? 

Again hamas says. They say Israel dismissed them out of hand. Israel says otherwise. I am privy to suspect Israel is in this instance being more honest because getting two more hostages out would be a propaganda victory they probably wouldn’t refuse just because. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again hamas says. They say Israel dismissed them out of hand. Israel says otherwise. I am privy to suspect Israel is in this instance being more honest because getting two more hostages out would be a propaganda victory they probably wouldn’t refuse just because. 

Yeah, maybe. It's all so sad and disheartening... I just keep thinking if one of these hostages was a,loved one of mine, as I'm sure they are just that for many. 

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Troyaorromee said:

You value men's life less than any other? *uck off.

this is your first comment here? bruh

[Bael's Bastard]

32 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So I've heard. Still, they did release 2 hostages. They say "humanitarian grounds"... it could be elderly people w/ a chronic illness that requires daily medication. It could be young people w/ a chronic disease w/ the same type of requirement. I get that no one should trust a terrorist organisation, but at the same time I don't understand dismissing the offer out of hand. Shouldn't an attempt be made at least? 

How does one explain this attitude to the families of the hostages? 

Be skeptical of the source. It is absurd to suggest Israel refused any hostages.

[kissdbyfire]

13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Be skeptical of the source. It is absurd to suggest Israel refused any hostages.

You're right, of course. I guess I'm feeling really anxious about the hostages, that's gotta be just such a horrific situation for them. 

[karaddin]

I saw the president of a synagogue in Detroit was found dead somewhere after having been "apparently" stabbed in her house. The reporting I saw was very early so it wasn't clear if she'd been trying to escape before dying or the body was moved, just that there was a clear trail back to her house. There was also no immediate sign of forced entry, but given her status in her community she would have been used to answering her door to people she may not know.

Obviously given the early info it's possible this will turn out to be yet another victim of partner violence or something along those lines, but it's also possible that it's either another case of the anger from this situation spilling over into violence elsewhere. It's also possible that it's some bigot that hates both sides of this conflict using the opportunity to kill off a member of a group they hate.

So as someone that's critical of the Israeli government's actions in Gaza - fuck anyone that's taking the verbal defence of civilians just trying to live their lives as agreement with their murderous agenda. We are not on the same page regardless of which group you want to kill, and I will continue to strive to make my arguments in a way that can't be construed as any sort of agreement.

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Life tip, never say this. Just say I'm sorry, even if you think you're 100% right. That said, I will try to be more respectful as well. 

Yeah, that's fair. I'm sorry. I am also sorry that that was how you interpreted what I said, because that wasn't my intent. That doesn't have to do anything with me being right or not, it has to do with what I was trying and failing to do.

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't get the sense you've been told throughout your life you look like a Jew. If so, that does change how I'd approach some of my comments, but if not, you really don't need to state this new feeling of dread unless you're determined to wear a Star of David necklace. Honestly I wouldn't recommend doing so even if you can't completely pass. 

Throughout my life? Like, every day? Not exactly. It definitely did happen in High School though. When I had my hair longer and I got the super curly hair with the ringlets? Yeah. You'll have to ask around the rest of the board to get other's impression on how Jewish I look, but my observations are a few things: I look a lot like Seth Rogen (and specifically right now I look a lot like Seth Rogen from American Pickle, the older one), my grandfather looks a whole lot like Phil Leotardo from Sopranos (specifically the bushy eyebrows), and my sons look a lot like me and a whole lot like my father and uncle. None of us have a super big nose nor do we have the really characteristic jet black hair, but we definitely look a lot like most of the other Pole and Lithuanian Jews I've met and talked with. 

That said how well I can pass probably doesn't matter given that the large amount of genetic information that leaked recently. Gone are the days when people are going to likely get tracked down based on how they look; it's who they interact with, who they support, what jobs they do, and then what other info (like 23andMe) gets out there. And in that way we are all very, very hosed as far as hiding away. If bad times come in the US we'll be part of it. 

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Well speaking as someone whose great-grandfather had to flee Russia because he was Jewish, along with most of his family, not exactly. He was the lucky one that kept going west and yes, found himself deployed at an Army base in Duluth, MN. Most of his family found out the hard way why either staying in Russia or central Europe didn't go so well for them. That's a big reason I don't have any interest in looking into my family tree. What's the point? 

Because a whole lot of folks didn't end up dead, as it turns out. Or they fled but they didn't flee to the same places and are scattered all over the place. Because of this study my wife did I found out I have a bunch of family in France, in several other places in the US, and a couple random people in...Tunisia, I want to say? Maybe Algeria? And more interestingly, you can find out potentially a lot of where you were before all that. It's pretty cool! And you may find a bunch of random relatives that you had no idea you had. 

Or, like me, you could find out that you can apply for and get Lithuanian citizenship. Which is pretty neat!

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Anyways, I'm not saying you're not Jewish (and that can lead to another conversation about how some Jews view the topic, with the most extreme ones saying neither of us are), but just be a bit more sensitive about a touchy subject at this time. I don't doubt you fear for your kids' safety, but that said it's not a horror you or they have known their entire lives. Hopefully when they're older they'll live in a period where that isn't the case, but sadly I doubt it. Best advice I can give you is to teach them to not look away from the past and find strength in knowing people can overcome the worst that humanity has to offer. 

What I've tried to teach them about this is that because of their ancestry there will be people who will hate them and wish them dead, and that knowledge should not define them. We talked about more current events like Charlottesville or the synagogue murders and what that means to them too. We talk about how that's true for a great many people out there depending on their ancestry and where they live. 

I've not talked a ton to them about the Israel-Hamas war yet, because I think it's too soon to talk about it and too soon to specifically expose them to the horrors of it while it's so raw. 

[mormont]

12 hours ago, Ran said:

I'm getting a sense that Channel 4 is extremely pro-Palestine.

That's not really a strong criticism, I'm afraid. C4N is an ITN outlet, and while the Channel 4 programme is editorially distinct from their main news - aimed at a more educated, left-wing audience rather than a mainstream audience - their journalistic standards are not easy to criticise. Certainly on a par with any US outlet you could name.

They broke the Cambridge Analytica story, they broke the UK MP's expenses scandals, they are a serious and weighty news outlet. I appreciate that no-one should be beyond criticism, and there are some reasonable questions you ask about the analysis, but it can't be waved away out of hand because of a perceived bias. C4N are a credible source.

ETA - I'm not sure it's useful, anyway, to be dividing the world into 'pro-Palestine' and 'pro-Israel' camps. It's only a step from there to 'anti-Palestine' and 'anti-Israel'. A whole lot of people are neither. In fact most of us are, I'd venture to say.

Edited October 22, 2023 by mormont

[Relic]

8 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

First of all, I want to reiterate something that has been said by myself and others in recent weeks. STOP linking to Twitter. Take one look at the comments made to this girl to see what  cesspool of hate and intolerance that shit-pit has become. 

It's pretty incredible how quickly social media went from benefitting society to being one of the very worst things about modern life. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Relic