Israel - Hamas War VI

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

IDK man, maybe we could look at their actions instead of just what they're saying? Or do you think North Korea is democratic and a republic? Like yes, they are also trying to commit genocide, the speed at which they are doing so is irrelevant. I'm Canadian, you're American, we both know that a country can be slowly committing genocide all the while pretending they're not and indeed are claiming thy are trying to help the people they are slowly wiping out.

Apples and oranges mate. And intent does matter, not being able to carry out your goal is why there are crimes like attempted murder and various conspiracy charges. 

33 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't know about you, but I am and come from a family that pushed for a Palestinian state during a decade where family and friends were being blown to pieces on buses and in restaurants believing that Arafat would ultimately make peace. The Jews in this thread despise Netanyahu, reject the settlements amd violent Hilltop Youth, and push for a Palestinian state, only to be smeared as hawks who support apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide by people comparing Israel to the fucking Nazis. We and our families and friends have paid the price to support two states and continue to do so believing it is the only answer. More than can be said for people parroting Hamas and engaging in Holocaust inversion.

Pretty much the same albeit from the states. Almost everyone in my family is deeply critical of the Israeli government, wants a two state solution and believes in reparations. But they also believe Israel has a right to exist, and yes, it does seem like a lot of people here would assume the worst about them despite most of them being more far left hippie types  than right wing war hawks.

I mean shit, looking at those born in the 60's and onwards, there's probably 10-20 people in my family who wanted to follow the Grateful Dead around compared to one that thought about military service. 

12 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Hamas uses the the language of liberation and use facts to justify their actions. 

Gross. 

[Altherion]

24 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I think something that everyone doesn't acknowledge is that the casualty rate is, in fact, genocidal. We're certainly over 2,000 deaths a week (possibly closer to 2,500), and while I don't think the IDF maintains 50/hour for very long, that would be enough to wipe our the entire population of Gaza in about 5 years.
And we are being told that this may indeed last years.
This raises the question of what is supposed to be an acceptable casualty rate for this operation, because it can't possibly be the one we are seeing so far. With several years at the current intensity, even allowing for regular pauses for humanitarian reasons, we're talking about killing and maiming a substantial proportion of the population.

It depends strongly on what fraction of those casualties are members of Hamas and other terrorist groups. Hamas is very quick to broadcast civilian casualties as widely as possible, but, like nearly all military groups, they don't advertise their losses. Furthermore, it's unlikely that this kind of bombing campaign can be kept up for long -- if nothing else, one runs out of dual-use infrastructure to bomb.

Also, there's no way this will last years. Judging by the funding currently being debated in Congress, the US will probably give Israel some leeway for a few months, but eventually they'll be told to wrap things up.

[TrueMetis]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Apples and oranges mate. And intent does matter, not being able to carry out your goal is why there are crimes like attempted murder and various conspiracy charges.

FFS I didn't say intent didn't matter Tywin. You're smarter than this, don't bother responding until you remember that.

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Gross. 

Way to leave out the fact that I said I do not necessarily agree with Hamas' actions. The fact is that Hamas uses certain truths and liberatory language to justify their unjustifiable actions but that does not delegitimize the Palestinian struggle as a whole no matter how much you parrot Hasbara talking points..

[Conflicting Thought]

what do people think is going to happend when israel wins this war? i mean how many orfan kids and survivors are being radicalized right now that will become the next "terrorist" organization, and israel will say, see the terrorist? we must kill them all, they want us dead!, rinse and repeat untill no palestinian is left alive. all of them are potential terrorists

[Conflicting Thought]

12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Gross

you are blinded by fear and will not understand and will not listen untill it is to late. its all so very sad, seeing some people be so glib about what is happening. justifing things that cant be justified.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

FFS I didn't say intent didn't matter Tywin. You're smarter than this, don't bother responding until you remember that.

You said this:

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

IDK man, maybe we could look at their actions instead of just what they're saying? 

That is downplaying intent, especially when you consider the party is saying they intend to do something they've already done before.

8 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Way to leave out the fact that I said I do not necessarily agree with Hamas' actions. The fact is that Hamas uses certain truths and liberatory language to justify their unjustifiable actions but that does not delegitimize the Palestinian struggle as a whole no matter how much you parrot Hasbara talking points..

"I do not necessarily agree with Hamas" is a pretty odd thing to write. And the fact is Hamas butchers people, both those they hate and those they govern, to try and reach a political goal. They're not trying liberate anyone. Again, Palestinians do not equal Hamas, but having empathy for the latter in any extent is gross. They're a terrorist organization dedicated to killing Jews while holding Palestinians hostage and using them as human shields. That's what Hamas is.

 

[IFR]

52 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I think something that everyone doesn't acknowledge is that the casualty rate is, in fact, genocidal. We're certainly over 2,000 deaths a week (possibly closer to 2,500), and while I don't think the IDF maintains 50/hour for very long, that would be enough to wipe our the entire population of Gaza in about 5 years.
And we are being told that this may indeed last years.
This raises the question of what is supposed to be an acceptable casualty rate for this operation, because it can't possibly be the one we are seeing so far. With several years at the current intensity, even allowing for regular pauses for humanitarian reasons, we're talking about killing and maiming a substantial proportion of the population.

I'd like more perspective on this point as well. I think we all can acknowledge that Hamas is a parasitic organ of Palestine, with the stated goal of eradicating Jews. With their existence, one can reasonably anticipate murderous atrocities prosecuted against Jews.

Israel has an interest of course in eliminating this threat. But with their current approach, it is taking a toll of thousands of innocent lives, a good portion of whom are children. At what cost is it worth in innocent lives to attempt to deal with the Hamas threat? Tens of thousands of innocent lives? Hundreds of thousands? Is the genocide of the Palestinian people an acceptable cost for the security of Israel?

What do people think?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

you are blinded by fear and will not understand and will not listen untill it is to late. its all so very sad, seeing some people be so glib about what is happening. justifing things that cant be justified.

When have I ever been glib? I shouldn't have to write for the 100th time I do not support the Israeli government and think what they're doing is mostly wrong and extremely shortsighted. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Succeeding at it?

Hamas has less chance at succeeding at killing all Jews than the Nazis.

55 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But they also believe Israel has a right to exist, and yes, it does seem like a lot of people here would assume the worst about them despite most of them being more far left hippie types  than right wing war hawks.

 

On some domestic policies they’re alright. It’s they’re foreign policy people usually have a problem with and they keep electing right wing war hawks sooo… 

[Conflicting Thought]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I shouldn't have to write for the 100th

oh the irony

 

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

When have I ever been glib?

sorry, that wasnt directed at you

[JGP]

55 minutes ago, IFR said:

Israel has an interest of course in eliminating this threat. But with their current approach, it is taking a toll of thousands of innocent lives, a good portion of whom are children. At what cost is it worth in innocent lives to attempt to deal with the Hamas threat? Tens of thousands of innocent lives? Hundreds of thousands? Is the genocide of the Palestinian people an acceptable cost for the security of Israel?

What do people think?

I think Israel has taken it too far, but that's not new. I felt it every time some kid about to throw a rock, or a tire, got sniped.

Feel it now.

The absolute disgust though? That's new. This latest is beyond the pale. And yeah, Hamas sucks. Line their leadership and perps in front of me and I'll do them myself. Doesn't change my judgment on how Israel has comported itself one Planck scaled fucking iota however. 

 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, IFR said:

Is the genocide of the Palestinian people an acceptable cost for the security of Israel?

Absolutely not.
But as I think the toll in human suffering and indignity if Hamas stays in power is very high, especially as it is an absolute roadblock to any peace, simply from the evidence of the last 16 years, and imagining what the world where they stay in power in Gaza will look like.... well, removing Hamas seems to me worth a relatively high cost now to prevent higher cost in the future.

As I remarked way back, if people think Israel's blockade has been draconian now, it's nothing compared to what it will look like if Hamas is allowed to remain in power in Gaza.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

30 minutes ago, Ran said:

I remarked way back, if people think Israel's blockade has been draconian now, it's nothing compared to what it will look like if Hamas is allowed to remain in power in Gaza.

Elaborate please. What can they practically do worse than what they were pre-October 7th that justifies the risk for tens of thousands of civilians being killed and millions displaced?

[DireWolfSpirit]

I was curious how many hostages are being held,  currently about 230 hostages are being held by Hamas according to the reporting ive seen.

Hamas is believed to be holding 230 captives, an Israeli military spokesman separately told reporters on Sunday. The group has so far released four of its hostages.17 hours ago

 

https://abcnews.go.com › story

 

US still pushing to free Hamas' hostages as Israel expands ...

 

 

 

 

[Relic]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

It justifies appropriate uses of military force according to the laws of armed conflict that furthers the strategic goals Israel has set forth.

These words mean absolutely nothing when you are killing thousands of civilians, and risking an escalation that drags your allies into a broader, wider, and bloodier conflict. Israel should re-think its "strategic goals" and how to achieve them, or it needs to be stopped. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Relic

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

More children will die in Gaza unless ceasefire agreed

 

More children will die in Israel’s war on Gaza unless all parties agree to a ceasefire, Save the Children told Al Jazeera.

“This is the deadliest year since 2019 and that really speaks to the gravity of the situation in Gaza. Thousands of children have been killed and this will continue unless ceasefire is agreed,” Soraya Ali, Save the Children’s Global Media Manager for the Middle East-North Africa region, said.

“We can all agree that with every air strike and every bullet shot, a child’s sense of security is ripped away from them. What we owe to children is a ceasefire and all parties to agree to adhere to the rules of international humanitarian law.”

Supposedly more children have died in these weeks of fighting than in all conflicts around the globe per year since 2019.

[Heartofice]

There is a lot of talk about what other paths Israel could be taking now instead of it's current tactic, one being slowing down, more surgical strikes against Hamas positions and leadership. What about the vast underground infrastructure of tunnels and military positions throughout Gaza? Even if the IDF wiped out every Hamas member, whoever comes afterwards would still have the capacity to commit terrorist acts on Israel whilst that infrastructure is in place.

So it seems to me that the only way for Israel to end this war is to remove that infrastructure from Gaza, and it's one of Israel's stated aims. I don't see how it is possible to do that without basically evacuating the whole area and going in militarily.

Surgical strikes only cut off the heads of the weed. 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Surgical strikes only cut off the heads of the weed. 

"Mowing the grass" is the term Israel has used. As people were commenting for a decade or more, it was a purely operational solution to the fact that neither government was able or willing to resolve the central disputes, so you basically had a long, tepid war: Hamas would build up offensive capability, it'd become too much a nuisance, Israel goes in to "pare back" that capability, rinse and repeat.

It was untenable as a permanent solution, and Hamas ended any illusions with the October 7th massacre. 

[Daeron the Daring]