Israel - Hamas War XII

[Jace, Extat]

Who gives a sliquid fuck if the rapes were ordered or unordered. They happened. And they happened because Hamas is a terrorist organization that arms and empowers thugs to inflict harm on Jews. 

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Because outside entities and orgs have found the stats provided by Gazan medical and stat groups to be reliable.

Whereas, as mentioned, Israelbibiblahblah have been proven to be unreliable and liars of omission and commission many many many times. NOT ALWAYS, but very very very often in regard to anything to do with Palestinians, Gaza and the West Bank, and even killing innocent people.

Somebody linked a Times of Israel article saying the IDF agrees largely with those numbers it's just how many were Hamas fighters that is in question, so I'm not sure why we're still playing the "did that many people *really* die" game here.

[Hmmm]

33 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Probably a international human rights organization or the UN.

Investigative journalists are only able to access information that the Israeli government provides, and as we all know, Israel has a history of lying and omitting important information to fit their narrative. They also have sympathetic journalists and outlets who will uncritically repeat their propaganda even within those well reputed, independent media organizations, the same as basically every country does.

Okay. But what types of information does a human rights organization have access to that good investigate journalists don't? Or the UN for that matter. Which is also far less independent regarding what it can publish than a media house. 

8 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

Who gives a sliquid fuck if the rapes were ordered or unordered. They happened. And they happened because Hamas is a terrorist organization that arms and empowers thugs to inflict harm on Jews. 

You are right that it is tangential, and maybe something we should stop delving further in before we have something more concrete to go on. At least there do not seem to be so many posters in these threads who deny that the atrocities themselves took place. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[GrimTuesday]

4 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Okay. But what types of information does a human rights organization have access to that good investigate journalists don't? Or the UN for that matter. Which by its basic nature is also far less independent regarding what it can publish than a media house.

Human rights organizations do not have to worry about having their access stripped for not toeing the Israeli line in the same way that news outlets do. We have seen time and time again (not just in this conflict, but throughout the last century or so) that news media will absolutely propagate state narratives to ensure that they still have access to those sources.

Edited December 7, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Tywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

If she's going to speak for what Jews feel like (while not being one herself) I'm going to point out every single time that one of the reasons she feels this particular way is because she's German. And that German guilt - while absolutely deserved and important - is not a universal thing that everyone else in the world needs to base their actions on. 

And again, I find it deeply ironic that a German person is saying that murder via rage is worse than cold, unfeeling murder, especially when talking about a topic involving Jewish people. 

So no, I'm not going to chill with said shit. 

No, what you need to chill about is stolen pain. I explained this to you before. Maybe I did so like an asshole, but all the same, stop with the oversized outrage.  So yeah, chill.

And fyi, getting mad at Germans talking about this subject gets you nowhere. They mostly agree with you anyways. Well except German horses, who everyone knows are just trying to constantly bang kangaroos. But that is a topic for another thread. 

Quote

I'm honestly not sure about that, but it's really not that important - the 5000 mentioned came solely from IDF anonymous sources and hasn't been well-sourced at all, and even they say it's an estimate. Also, from previous reporting how IDF considers a 'Hamas' member is a bit loose. 

But even then, we're still talking over 10000 civilian deaths in two months. That's a lot!

Nothing has been that well sourced TBH. Hamas and the IDF are both most likely giving inaccurate numbers and NGOs are probably guessing. Just look at the stat given for buildings damaged and destroyed. The claim is around 40%, which could be true, but damaged leaves a lot of wiggle room. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Hmmm]

8 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Human rights organizations do not have to worry about having their access stripped for not toeing the Israeli line in the same way that news outlets do. We have seen time and time again (not just in this conflict, but throughout the last century or so) that news media will absolutely propagate state narratives to ensure that they still have access to those sources.

I have a hard time seeing that the BBC would be afraid of something like that. Anyway, if one of the main human rights organizations or a UN led investigation comes to the same overall conclusions as that article, you will admit that it happened? I guess we will see then. Because I bet such reports will come out in the coming months. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hmmm

[Tywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

I described Hamas as a liberatory organization because no matter how much you want to focus on their antisemitism, they absolutely are fighting for Palestinian freedom.

No they're not. They actively use Palestinians as human shields while denying them basic medical aid. They're in no way fighting for Palestinian freedom. They're a terrorist group that wants to kill Jews, and every Palestinian that dies that helps them achieve that goal is a good thing. Full stop. 

You keep talking about propaganda not realizing you've totally bought theirs. Hook, line and sinker. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[mormont]

OK, two things I want to put down now. And yes, I will be speaking as a moderator here.

First, atrocities. I've spoken before about getting into an 'atrocity contest'. Which atrocity was worse? is not a game we're going to play here, for the following reasons:

- it is not respectful to the victims of said atrocities to diminish what they suffered by comparisons with others, and any comparison inevitably does that to some degree.

- it encourages more detailed accounts, and it is similarly not respectful to use these sorts of details to 'win' an argument on a fantasy fiction message board, as if such an argument could ever in any meaningful sense be 'won'.

- it gets people, understandably, quite emotional to read these traumatic accounts and this contributes to misunderstandings, insults, and other things that create heat but not light.

So. No atrocity contests. No who-died-worse. If I see it happening, I will delete it.

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

If she's going to speak for what Jews feel like (while not being one herself) I'm going to point out every single time that one of the reasons she feels this particular way is because she's German. And that German guilt - while absolutely deserved and important - is not a universal thing that everyone else in the world needs to base their actions on. 

And again, I find it deeply ironic that a German person is saying that murder via rage is worse than cold, unfeeling murder, especially when talking about a topic involving Jewish people. 

So no, I'm not going to chill with said shit.

Second thing. Yes, you are going to chill with said shit, I'm afraid, at least on these threads. The point has been made. Making it over and over when others have asked you to refrain isn't OK. Not with this kind of remark. Please knock it off.

[TrueMetis]

https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/dozens-of-hamas-terrorists-surrender-to-israeli-soldiers-report-says/news-story/a8cf3777e1f065871fcb31191f321013

The linked story is kind of a great example of the information problem I've been banging on about, Israel says these are photos of surrendered terrorists, Hamas says they're civilians with one news agency claiming one guy as one of their journalists. And regardless of either of those things, you've got pictures of blindfolded naked men kneeling there while soldiers stand above them. Unless humiliation is the point, this seems like a bad move in general.

It's like the reports of IDF snipers shooting civilians, I can't really find good sources on the claims. Though I admit I don't have that much trouble believing it since we know they've done so in the past.

[kissdbyfire]

Better link:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/hundreds-jewish-organization-staffers-call-white-house-back-gaza-cease-rcna128465

Quote

While most major American Jewish organizations staunchly support Israel in its war against Hamas, dissent has quietly been growing among their often younger employees, some of whom are now speaking out to “demonstrate broad support within the Jewish community for a ceasefire.”

More than 500 staffers at over 140 Jewish organizations across the country signed on to an open letter to President Joe Biden, shared first with NBC News, calling for a cease-fire, the return of all hostages and a lasting peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Kalbear]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, what you need to chill about is stolen pain. I explained this to you before. Maybe I did so like an asshole, but all the same, stop with the oversized outrage.  So yeah, chill.

I'll chill about that, but last comment - you don't get to dictate to me that my pain isn't real. I get you think it isn't legitimate for whatever reason, but you thinking that doesn't make it so. I will say simply that it is not performative or trying to score cheap points. 

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Nothing has been that well sourced TBH. Hamas and the IDF are both most likely giving inaccurate numbers and NGOs are probably guessing. Just look at the stat given for buildings damaged and destroyed. The claim is around 40%, which could be true, but damaged leaves a lot of wiggle room. 

the damaged buildings is actually pretty independently sourced and comes from satellite image comparisons of before and after. You're right that damaged doesn't mean obliterated or anything like that, but 40% is probably quite accurate and reasonable. Even better, it's all open source - you can take a look at it yourself.

[Tywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I'll chill about that, but last comment - you don't get to dictate to me that my pain isn't real. I get you think it isn't legitimate for whatever reason, but you thinking that doesn't make it so. I will say simply that it is not performative or trying to score cheap points. 

I'm not saying it's illegitimate, just that in general people from groups that have experienced a lot of pain and trauma don't like it when people who just found out they're a member of the group act like they've experienced the same thing. 

More importantly, toughen up. Otherwise you'll be miserable. 

Quote

the damaged buildings is actually pretty independently sourced and comes from satellite image comparisons of before and after. You're right that damaged doesn't mean obliterated or anything like that, but 40% is probably quite accurate and reasonable. Even better, it's all open source - you can take a look at it yourself.

I don't doubt the number is relatively accurate, but again there is some vagueness. Obviously there's been way too much destruction, however, I've also seen reports of buildings being damaged and all that happened was a few windows were broken. It's hard to tell what's accurate and we won't know really until the fighting stops. It wouldn't surprise me if it's actually worse, but we need to wait and see. 

[Tywin et al.]

42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Better link:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/hundreds-jewish-organization-staffers-call-white-house-back-gaza-cease-rcna128465

 

I hate to break it to you, but this is meaningless. For starters, 500 staffers is nothing, especially with that number of organizations included. Second, returning all the hostages for a ceasefire has been most people's position, especially at this point. However, Hamas has said it wants a ceasefire, and by ceasefire they mean Israel stops attacking them, but they can keep attacking and have said they will, all while refusing to give up most of the remaining hostages. All this amounts to is seriously naïve thinking. 

[Zorral]

Heard on NPR's All Things Considered  tonight, in separate stories:

An Israeli close to Lebanon stating that "we need to do to Lebanon what we are doing to Gaza" -- and further saying that is what most Israelis want, and that the USA not only should stay out of this, but still continue to provide all support and aid possible;

Most Israelis have no that they are are at terrible war at all, and that terrible things are happening in Gaza and the West Bank --  because they are living comfortably -- while the Israeli press and media does not report on the war or interview any Palestinians -- for one thing 'the conservatives' won't allow it.'

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, mormont said:

First, atrocities. I've spoken before about getting into an 'atrocity contest'. Which atrocity was worse? is not a game we're going to play here, for the following reasons:

I just want to add to this - even if we could argue it out to some kind of objective decision it's still pretty pointless. If Hamas treated the hostages like honored guests would that somehow magically diminish the heinous act of taking hundreds of people hostage in the first place? Absolve them for murdering over a thousand people in the same attack that they seized the hostages? 

Of course not. And the same applies in the other direction, you don't need to pile further atrocities on top to judge those involved as evil - there's plenty of undisputed facts making that clear.

I hope those that are responsible for this face some form of justice, that those who were taken hostage and are still alive are released or recovered alive in some way, and that they are able to heal from the massive trauma inflicted on them by living months in captivity always a potential 1 minute away from being executed even if their other conditions were treating them like a king.

[Altherion]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Most Israelis have no that they are are at terrible war at all, and that terrible things are happening in Gaza and the West Bank --  because they are living comfortably -- while the Israeli press and media does not report on the war or interview any Palestinians -- for one thing 'the conservatives' won't allow it.'

This is not even remotely plausible. You do realize that roughly half a million Israelis are displaced from the areas near Gaza to somewhere else in Israel, right? Also, any given Israeli almost certainly personally knows a reservist who has been called up to fight in this war and Hamas keeps firing rockets at Israeli cities. The Israelis know they are at war and they're not living particularly comfortably.

What is probably true is that the Israeli media generally does not report the Hamas-sourced stories found in media around the world, but anyone who has studied anything about modern warfare at all knows that the situation in Gaza cannot possibly be good.

[Zorral]

29 minutes ago, Altherion said:

This is not even remotely plausible.

Already, before the war, our Israeli friends who are against the bibietc. policies allowing atrocities in the West Bank and Gaza, and generally treating Israeli Palestine citizens horribly have SAID this to me, directly, and elsewhere -- life for most Israelis has been comfy enough, and without the reporting, they have NO IDEA how differently Palestinians are treated and how differently their lives are lived -- even to get to a doctor in Jerusalem.

Earlier this week, ATC reporting on events and doing their anodyne background to today's events, began by saying, "On October 7th, Hamas broke out of Gaza ..."  I don't think the editors even realized what they were saying by allowing that line to go through.

I suggest you go online and get All Things Considered -- NPR on your computer for December 7, 2023, and listen to the stories -- told by Israelis.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Zorral

[Craving Peaches]

 

[JoannaL]

13 hours ago, Kalbear said:

And that German guilt - while absolutely deserved and important - is not a universal thing that everyone else in the world needs to base their actions on. 

 

This is not about German guilt. This is a trope of the left. "We can not objectivly see  the Gaza war because of the past (we had some demonstrations: "Free Palestine from German guilt") " Thats bullshit.

This is not about the past. This is about the present.

In this present (which we (who live now) are responsible for opposed to the past -when we were no yet born-) we have antisemitism in our country. Antisemitism of the right and left and migrants. it is shocking and the partying on some street after October 7 and the attack on a Berlin synagogue has deeply disturbed our country. But I think we are fighting back quite clearly and we had strong comments and actions also of the politians of the left and Greens condemming also left and progressive antisemitsim (which is not always the main problem but clearly in this moment) We are not doing fine but we are really trying our best and I have a feeling we really fight to let our Jewsih community see that we will not tolerate their feeling of unsafety.

we also now- in the here and now that counts and that can be influenced by us - do not have ivy league heads who can say that the call to genocide on Jews is only wrong regarding the context.  These people would be out of job here immediately and perhaps in jail soon after.

 

[Mudguard]

11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I don't doubt the number is relatively accurate, but again there is some vagueness. Obviously there's been way too much destruction, however, I've also seen reports of buildings being damaged and all that happened was a few windows were broken. It's hard to tell what's accurate and we won't know really until the fighting stops. It wouldn't surprise me if it's actually worse, but we need to wait and see. 

I wondered about this myself, so I looked into the basis on how one of the most cited group of researches was coming up with their numbers.  (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/inside-the-satellite-tech-revealing-gazas-destruction/) 

The analysis I'm referring to is the maps with damaged buildings in yellow.  See, for example:

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2023/middleeast/map-humanitarian-aid-water-power-hospitals-gaza-strip-dg/index.html

They are using satellite radar imaging data with 10m resolution for their analysis.  Essentially, they started with a baseline image of Gaza using data from before Oct. 7/8, and stable building structures were identified.  Every 5 or 6 days they construct a new image based on updated satellite radar imaging data and identify damaged structures by comparing the new image with a previous image.  Since the resolution of the image is low (10m), it's not going to pick up minor damage like a broken window, or pock marks on a building.  Only major damage that causes gross structural changes to the building are going to be picked up by this analysis.  I think it's safe to assume that these buildings are damaged to such an extent that they are very likely unfit to be lived in or used.