Who is dumber? Dunk or Victarion?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Oh, and I guess we can also debate who would win if they fought each other.

[kissdbyfire]

Vic, obviously. Dunk is not dumb, despite what he says repeatedly about it. He’s shy and insecure and often unsure of himself and his standing but he’s not stupid. Vic is stupid, very stupid. No contest really.
 

And my money would be on Dunk if they ever fought each other…

[Craving Peaches]

Vic is so stupid he becomes smart, whereas I would not describe Dunk as dumb in the first place. One has to remember he had no sort of formal education or access to resources to educate himself for most of his life, and he isn't stupid anyway.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

Really no contest. Vic makes dumb an art form. Who's more lovable, though? 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Really no contest. Vic makes dumb an art form.

But really bad, crappy af art, right?

8 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Who's more lovable, though? 

Everyone? Anyone? Seriously, any PoV, easy. Best I can do is split the “least lovable PoV” between Vic and the Damphair!

[Alester Florent]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Everyone? Anyone? Seriously, any PoV, easy. Best I can do is split the “least lovable PoV” between Vic and the Damphair!

Varamyr? Merrett Frey?

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Varamyr? Merrett Frey?

I’m not counting Prologues & Epilogues as PoVs. That’s my explanation and I’m sticking to it! 

(Seriously, I do not count these as proper PoVs.)

[Northern Sword]

Weird that I am defending Vic, but the more people hate him, the more I like him. I am flat out hoping he becomes a full dragon convert as Daenerys Admiral.

I don't think he is dumb. His knowledge is that of a warrior, ship captain and commander, which he is exceptional at.  While out side of this he is ignorant, I don't think that is the same as dumb, I simply think he has never cared about anything out side of these rolls. 

Now Dunk, he is a stoopid idiot head. JK  

[Canon Claude]

Okay, let's all be honest, here. Dunk is dumb. He is dumb in the same way that Prince Myshkin was dumb. Dunk's stupidity is born out of a naiveté and ignorance which is much more wholesome than Victorian's brute stupidity. But he is still dumb. He was dumb enough to attack a Targaryen prince, dumb enough to tell Maekar that his sons were awful, and he wanted to take Aegon out on the road to avoid him being just as awful as his older brothers. In any other setting, Dunk would have been harshly punished for what he did and said. It's only due to luck that he failed upward into the Kingsguard. Victarion might be dumb, but he at least knows how to exist in his culture. But at the same time, Dunk is way too good for his society, so I'd say although he's dumber than Victarion, he's much better than him too.

As for fighting, I'd say Victarion would win if we're talking about Dunk's fighting skills in the current D&E books. Maybe by the time the Laughing Storm's rebellion, Dunk had caught up to Victarion's level, so then it becomes more difficult to say. Though I'd still guess that it would be Victarion. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Really no contest. Vic makes dumb an art form. Who's more lovable, though? 

We should remember that Dunk is very young when we meet him and probably got smarter with age. Victarion doesn't have that excuse.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[sifth]

In Vic's defense he does know how to sail and captain a ship. That's not something I can picture someone like Gregor doing.

[Kierria]

We should give Dunk the benefit and see how he turned out after spending his time on the road and in the company of a smart little boy.  Lack of education because he was confined to the slums of Kings' Landing limited his growth.  Arlen was the first person he knew who could read.  

Dunk's shortcomings in natural intelligence is compensated with practical street sense.  I think the book's author respect practical sense over IQ.  He sure would know the value of street sense from having grown up in New Jersey public housing.  Disclaimer > never been to Bayonne.  Am basing my opinions from time in NY.  I think you all get the point though.  Practical sense is what will keep Arya alive in the Game longer than Sansa even though the difference between them is small.  Arya is handicapped by her emotional and mental issues but the lessons she learned in the slums of Kings' Landing is a better preparation over Sansa's.  

Victarion is a brute.  He keeps company with brutes and low lifes.  What natural intelligence he was born with got wasted like unused muscles.  The Greyjoys never impressed me with their intelligence.  That goes for Victarion, Euron, Theon, and Balon.  

[KingintheNorth4]

Yes.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

17 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Okay, let's all be honest, here. Dunk is dumb. He is dumb in the same way that Prince Myshkin was dumb. Dunk's stupidity is born out of a naiveté and ignorance which is much more wholesome than Victorian's brute stupidity. But he is still dumb. He was dumb enough to attack a Targaryen prince, dumb enough to tell Maekar that his sons were awful, and he wanted to take Aegon out on the road to avoid him being just as awful as his older brothers. In any other setting, Dunk would have been harshly punished for what he did and said. It's only due to luck that he failed upward into the Kingsguard. Victarion might be dumb, but he at least knows how to exist in his culture. But at the same time, Dunk is way too good for his society, so I'd say although he's dumber than Victarion, he's much better than him too.

As for fighting, I'd say Victarion would win if we're talking about Dunk's fighting skills in the current D&E books. Maybe by the time the Laughing Storm's rebellion, Dunk had caught up to Victarion's level, so then it becomes more difficult to say. Though I'd still guess that it would be Victarion. 

Eh, nah. Not fitting into a culture is not dumb. Like, at all. Now let’s talk abiut why Dunk isn’t stupid. 

So he attacked a prince, which you call dumb. I say no. He’s just a hero. He did what was right because he has very strong beliefs about what is right. Honestly its one of the most refreshing scenes in the book. You can call it dumb, I never will. 

I’d say Maekar respected Dunk’s blunt honesty. Again, I don’t think that is dumb. Not being a bootlicking asskissing brown noser is not dumb. It’s not smart either, it just has nothing to do with intelligence. 

I remember at one job I had, one teacher was loved by the management. She was dumb as a box of rocks. But she did what they said and even brown-nosed a little. Being a brown-noser isn’t intelligent thiugh, it’s…good social skills, and lacking social grace/skills is not dumb, it’s lacking social skills. It’s a different topic. There is also the fact that many CHOOSE to ignore social queues because they are against their morals. Again that is not dumb. 

TLDR - Bad social skills is not = dumb. Deciding to ignore social cues because of your morals especially does not = dumb. Literally from this definition people like Rosa Parks or MLK would be “dumb”. They aren’t, at all. They simply are choosing to be brave and oppose bad systems. And I’d day Dunk honestly is somewhat in this vein. Uneducated yes, but his decisions ARE his decisions. He often thinks of the consequences and then does the thing anyways. That isn’t dumb, it’s heroic/brave. 

[sifth]

For me Dunk is the Forest Gump of GRRM’s universe. A character who is a lot more bright and brave than he first appears. Also insanely lucky. 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

The points made about Dunk not being educated in the subtleties of noble culture are fair. GRRM has fun with Dunk's cluelessness (especially with the gay double entendres in The Mystery Knight), but it's reasonable for a (probably not knighted) hedge knight from Flea Bottom to be clueless of a lot of this stuff. 

So, when he's out of his element, he is clueless, but he's aware of that uncertainty. It's why he's internalized the idea that he's dumb.  In contrast, what makes Victarion feel so damn dumb is how certain he is despite how clueless he is.

Moreover, Victarion comes from a noble house. The Iron Born are not exactly known for their intellectual sophistication, but Rodrik and Asha show that sharpness is possible there, in stark contrast to Thick Vic.

[TheLastWolf]

I take offence for Dunk

[Willam Stark]

Vic is dumber and Dumb would win an eventual fight.

[Alester Florent]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:42 PM, sifth said:

For me Dunk is the Forest Gump of GRRM’s universe. A character who is a lot more bright and brave than he first appears. Also insanely lucky. 

I mean, Dunk is still smarter than Forrest. Forrest is unintelligent, but prospers thanks to a combination of strength of character, innate goodness, and pure luck. Dunk is uneducated and a bit naive but still can be quite shrewd and he learns quickly; in the second and third stories he is to some extent playing the part expected of him (and is capable of "register switching" to an extent when necessary) whereas Forrest is just being himself.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

I mean, Dunk is still smarter than Forrest. Forrest is unintelligent, but prospers thanks to a combination of strength of character, innate goodness, and pure luck. Dunk is uneducated and a bit naive but still can be quite shrewd and he learns quickly; in the second and third stories he is to some extent playing the part expected of him (and is capable of "register switching" to an extent when necessary) whereas Forrest is just being himself.

You don’t think Dunk is also insanely lucky?