Israel - Hamas war XIV

[kissdbyfire]

Last post from the previous iterarion:

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@GrimTuesday
 

Quote

In the American south, the line was always we can't give slaves equal rights to their masters, otherwise they will rise up against the whites and there will be a race war. This has been echoed every time there has been an oppressor and oppressed dynamic throughout history. Don't get me wrong, in a few cases, is has come to fruition, but in the vast majority of cases, it has not.

Right, but this was done when there was no real evidence it would happen. It's the same stupid reason many whites in the US today are afraid of the country becoming a majority minority country. There's no reason to think once that happens minorities are going to attack white people. Not exactly the same in this instance when they say they're going to kill or expel every Jew if they can. Comparing the two is incredibly ignorant. 

[karaddin]

Please tell me the Israeli PM account on Twitter is a parody. If those "Christmas" messages are real can anyone tell me with a straight face they think this war is going to end with any Palestinians still living in Gaza? 

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

If those "Christmas" messages are real can anyone tell me with a straight face they think this war is going to end with any Palestinians still living in Gaza? 

Since he's talking about Hamas and other militants, sure, millions of Palestinians are going to be living in Gaza. Hopefully with very few militants among their number.

[Craving Peaches]

@Ran, I'd like to clarify something about the last post you made in the previous thread:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/163614-israel-hamas-war-xiii/&do=findComment&comment=9008022

Quote

The solution we learn from the past is that the Palestinian people should get a state of their own. It will almost certainly be as corrupt and despotic, illberial and undemocratic as every other Middle Eastern state besides Israel,  but so be it -- it'll be the state they want and deserve.

What exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people deserve such a state? I don't think any group of people deserves a corrupt, despotic state...

Edited December 25, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[karaddin]

56 minutes ago, Ran said:

Since he's talking about Hamas and other militants, sure, millions of Palestinians are going to be living in Gaza. Hopefully with very few militants among their number.

I desperately hope I'm wrong and you're right on this, and I'll happily come back and admit I was wrong if that's what happens. 

If the Palestinians wind up getting pushed across the border and not let back in will you admit you were wrong? Or will it simply be an exercise in moving the goal posts and explaining how it's justified actually?

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

@Ran, I'd like to clarify something about the last post you made in the previous thread:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/163614-israel-hamas-war-xiii/&do=findComment&comment=9008022

What exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people deserve such a state? I don't think anyone deserves a corrupt, despotic state...

I agree, no one deserves that. I mean, certain individuals might, but definitely not a whole people/country. 

I struggle to understand all the praise, if that's even the right word, that Israel gets b/c "democracy!" even when it doesn't really behave like one. 

The other thing I don't understand is the notion that all Muslim countries will never be true democracies b/c... reasons? I mean, we know the vast majority are ruled by nasty royal families or religious fundamentalists and that their rule crushes any popular/civil movements but that doesn't mean the bast majority of the people in these countries want to live under these oppressive regimes. 

Another thing that bugs me no end is this idea that America is helping democracies the world over. It's a lie. Yes, it may be the case at times, but it's very much the opposite in other instances. In other words, America is helping burgeoning democracies when it is in their best interest. In cases where their best interests align w/ those of the oppressors and/or invaders then that's who they will align with, like with Morocco and Western Sahara. While the UN recognised WS as an independent country, Trump went against that and as far as the US is concerned, WS belongs to Morocco. Candy bar to whoever guesses which is the only other country in the world that did the same? Worse, Biden never reversed that back. And worst, WS is fairly democratic, there's no terrorist activity, and is the Muslim country where women have more rights than any other. So much for "helping democracies". 

[DireWolfSpirit]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Worse, Biden never reversed that back. And worst, WS is fairly democratic, there's no terrorist activity, and is the Muslim country where women have more rights than any other. So much for "helping democracies". 

I dont think the U.S. has had a ethical Foreign policy President in my lifetime. Its always been various degrees of exploitation. Some worse than others, but all coming up short of our best ideas unfortunately.

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I dont think the U.S. has had a ethical Foreign policy President in my lifetime. Its always been various degrees of exploitation. Some worse than others, but all coming up short of our best ideas unfortunately.

While I think it's better now than it was, say, in the 60s & 70s when the US was installing military dictatorships all over the world, in all the countries it now looks down on and calls "banana republics" because how dare these lowly peoples think they can decide for themselves who will rule them Kissinger mentality, it's still far from the lofty ideals that it aspires to. Too many neocons at State, I guess.

The talk is spot on, but it's again a case of "watch what they do, not what they say". 

Edited December 25, 2023 by kissdbyfire

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

What exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people deserve such a state? I don't think any group of people deserves a corrupt, despotic state...

what do you think he means...i mean its pretty clear from what he has said in all these threads...not even taking in on the why many of these states have gone the way they have (hint...western intervention), it must feel sooo good to pass judgement from sweeden or whatever without having to think how your country is responsible in a major way that this states became the way they are.

and im sure the way that israel is conducting this war will have nothing to do with the way that things are going to be in the future.

and how can an apartheid state be considered a paragon of liberal democracy is beyond me, maybe because thats the way liberals see the world, that is the way of the liberal democracy, suposedly liberal and democratic at home, but fuck all that when it comes to the barbarians, like when the oh so democratic states of canada and norway come to our coutnries and do what they cant do in their own territory. exporting missery around the globe but taking none of the responsability for their actions and even more, lecturing the rest of the world!. it would be funny if you know... it wasnt so fucking horrible

[House Balstroko]

4 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

what do you think he means...i mean its pretty clear from what he has said in all these threads...not even taking in on the why many of these states have gone the way they have (hint...western intervention), it must feel sooo good to pass judgement from sweeden or whatever without having to think how your country is responsible in a major way that this states became the way they are.

and im sure the way that israel is conducting this war will have nothing to do with the way that things are going to be in the future.

and how can an apartheid state be considered a paragon of liberal democracy is beyond me, maybe because thats the way liberals see the world, that is the way of the liberal democracy, suposedly liberal and democratic at home, but fuck all that when it comes to the barbarians, like when the oh so democratic states of canada and norway come to our coutnries and do what they cant do in their own territory. exporting missery around the globe but taking none of the responsability for their actions and even more, lecturing the rest of the world!. it would be funny if you know... it wasnt so fucking horrible

What did Canada and Norway do? 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Dont forget Sweden, there was a Sweden slap there, but Im sure it was over ABBA so that was pretty easy to parcel out.

Thats some evil shit right there.

Edited December 25, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[Ran]

7 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What exactly did you mean when you said the Palestinian people deserve such a state?

I mean that they deserve a state, which is what they want. All indications are it won't be a very good state in terms of what the West values, but notwithstanding, they deserve a state, and should have it.

You people are strange.

[Darryk]

@GrimTuesday

Quote

If you want a Jewish dominated ethnostate, too fucking bad, you don't get to colonize a land and disenfranchise those who have been living there for centuries. You can cry all you want about second class citizens in history, but we're in the present, and we can choose to learn for the mistakes and inequalities of the past, we don't have to repeat them now that the shoe is on the other foot.

If you want a one-state solution, too fucking bad. It ain't happening.

Thinking America or anyone else is going to be able to convince Muslims in that region to stop hating Jews then you're barmy.

The colonisation narrative is bullshit. Palestine was a Roman, then Ottoman, then British territory where both Jews and Muslims were living for centuries. The UN divided it up between the two. If you don't like that solution then go cry about India and Pakistan.

And if you don't think people should "cry all they want about the past" then why are you crying about a supposed "colonisation" that happened 100 years ago?

Edited December 25, 2023 by Darryk

[Fragile Bird]

12 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

What did Canada and Norway do? 

That’s a very good question. We refused to join the coalition that attacked Iraq, but we did send troops to Afghanistan. Maybe that’s our crime? Because we can’t send troops to, say, Alberta, or Newfoundland?

[TrueMetis]

4 hours ago, Darryk said:

@GrimTuesday

If you want a one-state solution, too fucking bad. It ain't happening.

Thinking America or anyone else is going to be able to convince Muslims in that region to stop hating Jews then you're barmy.

The colonisation narrative is bullshit. Palestine was a Roman, then Ottoman, then British territory where both Jews and Muslims were living for centuries. The UN divided it up between the two. If you don't like that solution then go cry about India and Pakistan.

And if you don't think people should "cry all they want about the past" then why are you crying about a supposed "colonisation" that happened 100 years ago?

The colonization narrative is bullshit? Israel is creating settlements in the West Bank right fucking now, what else do you want that to be called but colonization? It didn't just happen 100 years ago it's happening right now.

And if the UN lends such legitimacy to arbitrarily cutting you're country up let's let them do it to your country and see how you feel about it. Talking about it becoming Roman, Ottoman, then British to say it's not colonization, like those Empires are famous for not colonizing anything. Out of your god damn mind.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

23 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

The colonization narrative is bullshit? Israel is creating settlements in the West Bank right fucking now, what else do you want that to be called but colonization? It didn't just happen 100 years ago it's happening right now.

That is colonization. Calling the creation of Israel in 1948 with really specific reasons wasn't. 

[GrimTuesday]

This idea that Arabs and Muslims are somehow barbarians who can't live with "civilized people" like Israelis is just bigotry, plain and simple. Antisemitism is rightfully condemned, but Islamophobia and anti-Arab sentiment is fully accepted and in many cases encouraged.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

This idea that Arabs and Muslims are somehow barbarians who can't live with "civilized people" like Israelis is just bigotry, plain and simple.

21% of Israel is Arab citizens and permanent residents. They do just fine.

But these are the Arab citizens who are happy to see Israel be a pluralistic, multicultural democratic state. This is not what most Palestinians want when they talk about "from the river to the sea". They do not want a binational state, they do not want a confederated state, they want an Arab state.

And they should get one, or two, within the 1967 bounds. That's fair.

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Ran

[kissdbyfire]

This looks like a totally legitimate way of fighting a war and taking prisoners. /s