Friends: TV Show 1994 - 2004 (Sitcoms)

[Heartofice]

Yeah same. It never even occurred to me that Ross was Jewish, maybe until about 10 minutes ago. Maybe it’s more explicit in the show, but it wasn’t something that crossed my mind. 
 

But then, there wasn’t the unfortunate level of hyper sensitivity that we have these days! It was a better time. 

[Poobah]

Friends was huge in the UK throughout my formative years and I'm still happy to tune in to it if I see a rerun on C4. It definitely ended up heading towards self-parody. As to the list of friends I mostly agree that Ross is the worst though they all have pretty shitty moments, especially Rachel and Monica, and to this day I can make my sister laugh by randomly yelling "pivot!" so that's a point in his favour. Chandler was very relatable and for all his faults I feel like Joey was actually a pretty good friend. Phoebe was an unhinged legend. 

[mormont]

32 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

If you asked 100 people in the UK what religion the gellers were, your average response would be I have no idea/who cares. 

It's not just their religion, and I'm fairly sure you're wrong. If it wasn't already clear, it's referenced repeatedly in the series.

[BigFatCoward]

4 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's not just their religion, and I'm fairly sure you're wrong. If it wasn't already clear, it's referenced repeatedly in the series.

Apart from the holiday armadillo I can't think of a specific reference. And I watched each episode at least 10 times.

And that's irrelevant to my point, the Jewish references would be lost for the overwhelming majority of the UK. Cos most people don't give a shit  

[BigFatCoward]

Also Jennifer Aniston was by far the best actor in the show. And its not even close  

[DMC]

54 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

If you asked 100 people in the UK what religion the gellers were, your average response would be I have no idea/who cares. 

46 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah same. It never even occurred to me that Ross was Jewish, maybe until about 10 minutes ago. Maybe it’s more explicit in the show, but it wasn’t something that crossed my mind. 
 

But then, there wasn’t the unfortunate level of hyper sensitivity that we have these days! It was a better time. 

That's great for you guys!  Perhaps - maybe - allow for the fact that not everybody is like you?  And, subsequently, such a ubiquitous show can have an impact on people's perception?  I know, crazy thoughts going on here.

[BigFatCoward]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

That's great for you guys!  Perhaps - maybe - allow for the fact that not everybody is like you?  And, subsequently, such a ubiquitous show can have an impact on people's perception?  I know, crazy thoughts going on here.

And vice versa? 

[mormont]

19 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

And that's irrelevant to my point, the Jewish references would be lost for the overwhelming majority of the UK. Cos most people don't give a shit  

Which is in turn irrelevant to DMC’s point. If the writers, who certainly knew the characters were Jewish, wrote them in a way that evoked negative stereotypes arbour Jewish folks, it’s not a defence to say ‘I missed that and I think others would have missed it too’. It’s still there. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said:

And vice versa? 

Uh...k.  The vice versa of "not everybody is like you" is.."you are not like everybody."  Either way, same point stands.  Honestly not sure what your point here is.

[Heartofice]

34 minutes ago, mormont said:

Which is in turn irrelevant to DMC’s point. If the writers, who certainly knew the characters were Jewish, wrote them in a way that evoked negative stereotypes arbour Jewish folks, it’s not a defence to say ‘I missed that and I think others would have missed it too’. It’s still there. 

It could be that it was written at a time where nobody was thinking like that, and given the lack of outrage about it at the time, the writers knew it wasn’t an issue.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It could be that it was written at a time where nobody was thinking like that, and given the lack of outrage about it at the time, the writers knew it wasn’t an issue.

Or, it could be that the showrunners played into antisemitic tropes - even though they themselves are Jewish - because they assumed that would have the most mass appeal among the American public.  I'm sorry to interrupt your safe space, but this exact aspect has been part and parcel of Hollywood for over a century now.

[Werthead]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

That happens for many characters unfortunately.

Flanderization - TV Tropes

(I'm not usually a great fan of this website, but in this case I think it has the right idea).

There seems to be a critical mass of episodes or length of time the show has been on the air for this to happen (you see it happen in UK shows with far fewer episodes, but usually also somewhere after they've knocked up seven or eight seasons), and sometimes a huge in-production shift seems to impact it.

Brooklyn Nine Nine fell off the cliff after Fox sold the show to NBC, although the first post-Fox season wasn't too bad, but the last two seasons were pretty poor. The Office should have ended when Carell left, no question. Frasier I think should have gone after Daphne and Niles hooked up (and preferably before the rest of the Moon clan started showing up on the regular; those accents are giving me PTSD). The last two to three seasons felt a bit limp. I'm rewatching Cheers now so interesting to see when that goes downhill (just got to Season 5, the one where Diane leaves).

Parks & Recreation I think held it together pretty well, but only because for the final season they deviated hard from the standard format, which was a big risk they just about pulled off. Seinfeld I think mostly avoided it, with the caveat that the last two seasons are clearly lesser, but they're also not total failure-disasters. Maybe because Seinfeld himself was able to pull the writers together and keep them trucking after David left, or maybe because those first three seasons being so short meant that the show had more fresh topics to tackle then you'd expect after nine seasons.

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Also Jennifer Aniston was by far the best actor in the show. And its not even close  

I think she was the best actor in the show, but Schwimmer is probably the best actor of the cast given the quality of his post-Friends work. Hell, I remember Band of Brothers airing when Friends was still on the air and everyone was very impressed with his role in that. I just don't think he was always best-used on Friends itself, apart from making Ross ever more unlikable.

Edited March 4 by Werthead

[DaveSumm]

I think Ross being ‘cheap’ is a stretch (in fact, he was one of the three who was not cheap in that single episode where their finances were relevant). He likes the thought of a low yield bond because he’s a dork, same way he likes to kick back with a puzzle and gets excited that his daughter‘s first word might mean she’s a scientist. He also bought Joey a ceramic dog for no particularly good reason.

I haven’t really heard of Monica’s compulsiveness being a Jewish thing, but then as we’re noticing here, Jewish people exist in a very different cultural space when comparing UK to US.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah same. It never even occurred to me that Ross was Jewish, maybe until about 10 minutes ago. Maybe it’s more explicit in the show, but it wasn’t something that crossed my mind. 
 

But then, there wasn’t the unfortunate level of hyper sensitivity that we have these days! It was a better time. 

The holiday armadillo who tells Ross’ son Ben all about Hannukah?  Did you not see that episode?

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

57 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

I think Ross being ‘cheap’ is a stretch (in fact, he was one of the three who was not cheap in that single episode where their finances were relevant). He likes the thought of a low yield bond because he’s a dork, same way he likes to kick back with a puzzle and gets excited that his daughter‘s first word might mean she’s a scientist. He also bought Joey a ceramic dog for no particularly good reason.

I haven’t really heard of Monica’s compulsiveness being a Jewish thing, but then as we’re noticing here, Jewish people exist in a very different cultural space when comparing UK to US.

There’s an episode where Ross gets in trouble with Rachel’s dad because Ross thinks Rachel’s dad is stingy on tips.

[Werthead]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The holiday armadillo who tells Ross’ son Ben all about Hannukah?  Did you not see that episode?

To be fair there's (Jesus) 236 episodes of Friends, so it's understandable not remembering every single last one of them, especially in the second half of the show when it was starting to decline.

I remember Joss and Monica being Jewish but it really did not come up very often.

In fact, I remember more the mystery/arguments over what George is in Seinfeld.

[HexMachina]

I hated Ross intensely even the first time I watched the show, he was just the worst person imaginable. 

I enjoyed the earlier episodes most, I'm a bit blurry where each season ends so I'm not sure which I liked most. But after a certain point they took the already exaggerated characteristics and stereotypes into absurdism. Also the more things focussed on Ross the less I cared. And every single love interest he had really just showed what a terrible person he was.

I don't think its a show that aged especially well, there's a lot of casual racism, homophobia and transphobia thrown in for cheap laughs. But I've certainly seen more recent shows that come off worse.

Its been a whole since I last rewatched but my favourite episode at one time as "The One with Five Steaks and an Eggplant"

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Joey liking the Triffle made that episode for me. “Custard, good; jam, good, beef, good!”

Joey's relationship with food is one of the funniest things in the show.

[IlyaP]

The characters as depicted in season 1 - and perhaps even a /bit/ in season 2 still felt like relatable human characters. Somewhere around season 3 is where I recall becoming frustrated as the characters started turning into borderline, if not outright charicatures of themselves - which is apparently is known as Flanderisation (thank you to whoever brought this term to light).

I'm not sure why this change occurred, but it results in me experiencing severe dissonance as it almost feels like two different shows; a charming, earnest, and laconic slice of life sitcom in season 1 and a bit of season 2 on the one hand, and an almost aggressively unreal, self-parody with behaviours that don't remind me of humans at all. 

As a result, in my headcanon, Friends stops somewhere around Ross going off to China and meeting Julie.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I think Ross being ‘cheap’ is a stretch (in fact, he was one of the three who was not cheap in that single episode where their finances were relevant).

Yeah that episode was about Monica/Chandler/Ross making more money than Rachel/Phoebe/Joey.  If you don't get Ross is cheap, you haven't been watching the series.  Hell, after he breaks up with Mona he breaks into her apartment and when she asks if she can keep his shirt he says no.

I honestly did not mean to start political shit.  Frankly, I assumed it'd be obvious to all across the political spectrum.  Unfortunately, we still have people that can't recognize antisemitism when it's put right in front of their faces.  Or deny as such for political purposes.

So, whatever man.  It's a sad person that can't at least acknowledge the stereotypes depicted in Friends.  It's not an indictment on the show -- and people (including myself) can and did identify it at the time.  The only part of this that's "woke" is you whining about it.

Edited March 4 by DMC