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Panos Targaryen

The episode's director explains why Jon and Ghost's farewell scene was so "cold"

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Given that they cut away from two central characters (Arya and Sansa) learning the biggest (allegedly) plot point in the series, them trimming this away doesn't surprise me in the least.

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This excuse doesn't even try to make sense. They had enough time for a goodbye scene but not enough time to make it in any way meaningful? People would have been happy with a couple wordless shots, you incompetents. 

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6 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I can understand that it would be extremely expensive and time consuming to do all the work of making a hands on scene with Ghost and Jon work.  I'm not a filmmaker lol, but I wonder if it could have been done with some creative shots, kind of like how they made the hobbits seem small/everyone else seem large in LOTR.  

It would be perfectly fine with me if they just used a Malamute and cheated on the whole direwolves are big lore. Because the relationship is more important than having a cool magic wolf thing. 

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I don't believe it.  There are CGI castles, balistas, massive dragons, armies of zombies, but they could't do a CGI wolf/Jon Snow goodbye? BS.  Utter BS.

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22 minutes ago, darmody said:

It would be perfectly fine with me if they just used a Malamute and cheated on the whole direwolves are big lore. Because the relationship is more important than having a cool magic wolf thing. 

That is the sensible option. 

And it will always be a mistery why they didn t do it. 

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1 hour ago, Astrotherapist said:

....

.... But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North.  Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere.  After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway.  My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost.  

I do soso hope that you are right! I'm desperately searching for a little bittle sweet in all the tsunami of bitterness I fear coming.

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Who cares about Sam at this point, the coward.

 The time spent on saying goodbye to the coward Sam should have been used to have a great, intimate moment with Ghost, who is anything but a coward. And it would have had a much bigger and better impact. But whatever. The show clearly hates Jon as a character at this point. I mean even Arya gets a fucking goodbye with Nymeria. 

I FUCKING HATE how much time and money they have wasted on the useless Dragons. That could have been used for the direwolves. Which have a significantly better bond and emotional reward than the dragons. Not that I hate the dragons but they were so wasted...but at least they got the time and money as opposed to the direwolves. Sorry for the language, this is one part of the show that really gets to me on a personal level. The show really messed up big time with the direwolves, seeing them as just cgi things. Even though the bond they share with the Starks adds so much more to the impact and emotion of the show. Could have been a powerful addition if done correctly.

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Posted (edited)

It would be better if it was a scene put in to show how Jon feels like his Stark identity is suffering at the moment and needs resolution, but we have very little sense of what Jon feels about his new name, and change in relationships. We don't even know how he feels about not being Ned's son anymore. We just know that he's guilty enough about the prospect of lying to his siblings that he has to tell them the truth, and he still feels like he's still not a Stark. I'm probably giving the writers too much credit though. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, David Selig said:

These guys are just openly trolling at this point.

Its entirely possible...

D goes - we know the main points  - someone kills NK in Winds and Dany goes crazy in Dream - but we cant write for shit

Other D goes - we could try and fake it

D goes - how has that been working out for us last few seasons? Everyone can tell our writing sucks

Other D goes - true, true. I've got it, lets take the piss.

D goes - good plan. We are going to film the most expensive made for TV piss-take ever. I mean they gave us a Star Wars trilogy and that franchise is just taking the piss now. They spend money on absolute crap nowadays, no-one will care.

Other D goes - no-one, no-one! That's it, no-one kills the NK. See, piss taking can work.

D high fives other D - all the way bro. As long as there are titties and dragons and a bit of blood, it's gonna rock.

Edited by ummester

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9 hours ago, Panos Targaryen said:

He said it with no shame too, goes to show how much they value their work and as a matter of fact the viewers of the series. 

Then again their priorities are all wrong and we know this so it’s just another thing on their list of failures.

Oh Dany forgot about the fleet.

Jon couldn’t say farewell to Ghost because of time constraints. As if they couldn’t have cut something out that’s actually irrelevant. The Direworlf is the symbol of house Stark so it’s pretty relevant and an important part of the series. 

They’ve made an absolute mockery of the whole thing.  

 

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5 hours ago, David Selig said:

These guys are just openly trolling at this point.

of cpurse they are...he doesnt go to Ghost right after saying to Sam, you're my best friend....nah fuck that shit.

 

If fur is so hard to work in cgi, what was with the polar bear scene from last season? Did we really need to see a 5 minute sex scene between 2 unimportant characters like missandei and grey worm?

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9 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

I've watched the scene several times now and I don't see it as quite the terrible and egregious act some make it out to be --folks are really knee-jerk overreacting to it. 

Kit Harrington isn't exactly the most dynamically-expressive actor out there and his emotions are subtle, but they are there, and I think that Jon also deserves the benefit of the doubt here.  He looks at Ghost very sadly.  Here's a gif of that:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ZMMECH2Jnda2D2gKf3Mtng--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTMzMS40MzY1ODAyMzgyNjIx/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/tZlzSDK0zKhkgu3lbvxHbw--~B/aD03Mzk7dz0xNDI3O3NtPTE7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_huffington_post_584/1c49eba656b21d01a5530568349c4914

That he acknowledged Ghost at all means he cares.   Additionally, and most importantly, the director didn't want a complicated, physical interaction between them because Ghost is CGI as explained here:

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye

Maybe they ran out of money, shooting the wad on dragons and big battles again. 

It also makes sense just from the vantage point of a canine owner.  If you give your dog any kind of encouragement they'll just follow you out the gate!  

Now let's look at the script.

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Jon is looking out for Ghost's happiness and welfare and that line makes his intention clear.  And it's true, a direwolf would be happier up there.  

If the showrunners didn't care about Ghost (or had no plans for him), they wouldn't have even bothered writing lines about him.  Jon would have said his farewells, there would be no Ghost in the scene at all, and it would just be assumed that Ghost was left at Winterfell with Sansa.  That's been the case in many other episodes where we haven't seen him.  

But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North.  Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere.  After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway.  My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost.  

I dont think he will reunite with ghost. Rhaegal was also killed to sever his ties to the ttargaryens, so his endgame is being a 'ghost', living in limbo, perhaps in the north, but on his own....dancing with his ghosts like jenny. not bittersweet in opinion...

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18 hours ago, ummester said:

What a dumb reason. With all the other BS we have seen this season. The could have cut the Starbucks cup out and given Ghost a few seconds for a quick pat on the head.

Logically Jon should have faced and defeated the NK (if the NK had to be defeated) but I have a theory on why it was Arya. More than fan service it was to calm the PC masses. Think about it, the end of the entire show is going to have 2 batshit crazy women (Cersie and Dany) making Westeros a living hell. If Jon (a white dude) killed the main villain and the final bosses were two crazy women, people, from our insane whinge about everything times, would be screaming 'this show is so sexist - makes it look like only dudes can be heroes and all women are crazy evil bitches.' Solution, give Arya an out of place hero moment.

The crazy thing is, I think NK dying in Winds of Winter by Jon's hand and Cersie and Dany being final bosses in Dream of Spring is probably the way GRRM is drafting it. I don't think anyone can accuse GRRM of being a sexist writer - he treats his female characters respectfully. For this particular saga, it does seem to make sense that Jon would kill the NK, Cersie would be left in KL and Dany would go all fire and blood before the end. That is just their characters and how the story has played out. If D&D could write the reason and connective tissue between set pieces as well as GRRM, they could make it work - I am just starting to think they are so afraid of angry internet backlash they forced Arya into a role that was never meant for her.

Yeah, I agree with you that political corectness is probably the main reason but D&D didn't want to say it aloud like that so they used the "too obvious" excuse.

As for Jon killing the NK in the books, the NK is a mythical figure in the books and I'm not sure if he ever appears as the leader of the undead. That put aside, I do believe that Jon will have a key role in the battle of the dawn, unlike in the show where he was virtually useless. Although I am a woman, I have no problem with it. There are many different strong female characters in the story who represent different kinds of women, so tbh I don't mind Jon being the hero in that battle.

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Oh I read that article, I laughed so hard. What a dumbass and condescending explanation! :lol: 

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I think they should have cut the whole ghost scene instead of giving us viewers this strange, emotionless goodbye (yes, Jon looked sad, but looking sad and walking away is not nearly enough, in my opinion). Why? Because at least I became accustomed to the fact, that the showrunners left the direwolves out after Jon's resurrection. I didn't expect a goodbye scene with ghost, so they should have simply left him out and shouldn't have mentioned anything about what's happening with him. That would be a minor flaw (amongst countless others) of the show. By doing this scene, they made the flaw bigger.

I think its save to say, that ghost won't play any role in the upcoming two episodes. So they could have easily killed him off-screen during the battle against the White Walkers. Then they would only have to spend money on CGI for a dead direwolf (which is cheaper than CGI for a living one, who moves in a realistic good looking way) during the burning scene at the beginning of this episode. That would be better than what they delivered instead.

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The sad thing is, creating such a scene wouldn't have been as hard as Nutter makes it sound. It would be hard to show the character pet the CGI enlarged wolf on the head, or to show the wolf nuzzle his hand, yes. But with a clever camera angle they could have minimized the required CGI.

An angle like the one in this image, for example: https://imgur.com/VTCXCBj

That way you don't have to show the hand actually interacting with the fur, but you can show the emotion on Jon's face. Just have a handler dressed in green pet the wolf in front of a green screen to capture the animal's reaction, recreated the same angle with Jon and place the wolf on a new layer on top of that. It shouldn't be much harder than any other scene where Ghost sits next to people (like the one at the beginning of the episode). They did something very similar in a different season. 

Another option would have been to have a close up of the hand petting the wolf's head, and use someone with smaller hands to simulate the scale. This might have been harder I guess, depending on how tame the animal was.

Giving Ghost all those scars and a torn ear probably cost more.

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I think there's a more insidious reason they have mishandled Ghost. This way if they get accused of fan service they can point to Jon and Ghost and say, "fans?  Clearly we don't care about the fans at all, let alone serve them!"

Sneaky clever. 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

I've watched the scene several times now and I don't see it as quite the terrible and egregious act some make it out to be --folks are really knee-jerk overreacting to it. 

Kit Harrington isn't exactly the most dynamically-expressive actor out there and his emotions are subtle, but they are there, and I think that Jon also deserves the benefit of the doubt here.  He looks at Ghost very sadly.  Here's a gif of that:

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ZMMECH2Jnda2D2gKf3Mtng--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTMzMS40MzY1ODAyMzgyNjIx/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/tZlzSDK0zKhkgu3lbvxHbw--~B/aD03Mzk7dz0xNDI3O3NtPTE7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_huffington_post_584/1c49eba656b21d01a5530568349c4914

That he acknowledged Ghost at all means he cares.   Additionally, and most importantly, the director didn't want a complicated, physical interaction between them because Ghost is CGI as explained here:

Here's Why Jon Snow Didn't Pet Ghost In His 'Game Of Thrones' Goodbye

Maybe they ran out of money, shooting the wad on dragons and big battles again. 

It also makes sense just from the vantage point of a canine owner.  If you give your dog any kind of encouragement they'll just follow you out the gate!  

Now let's look at the script.

TORMUND: We need room to wander.
I'll take them back through Castle Black as soon as the winter storms pass.
Back where we belong.
JON: It's where he belongs too.
A direwolf has no place in the south.
Will you take him with you? He'll be happier up there.
TORMUND: So would you.
JON: I wish I was going with you.
This is farewell, then.
TORMUND: You never know.
You've got the North in you.
The real North.

Jon is looking out for Ghost's happiness and welfare and that line makes his intention clear.  And it's true, a direwolf would be happier up there.  

If the showrunners didn't care about Ghost (or had no plans for him), they wouldn't have even bothered writing lines about him.  Jon would have said his farewells, there would be no Ghost in the scene at all, and it would just be assumed that Ghost was left at Winterfell with Sansa.  That's been the case in many other episodes where we haven't seen him.  

But this dialogue with Tormund portends that Jon will end up back in the North.  Jon had already expressed dislike for the South, for King's Landing, last season and has no interest in being king --anywhere.  After he loses Dany, after he discovers Sansa's betrayal, he won't live in King's Landing nor Winterfell which leaves Castle Black or the open wilderness beyond the Wall as the only choices left, and that's where his heart is anyway.  My money's on a bittersweet reunion with Ghost. 

Yes and they will make so cute puppies, Lol.

Edited by Nightwish

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Ugh, I wish I'd never read about this. I could have just continued watching those three seconds looking for intricate psychological subtext to forcibly make some sense of it. I can still sort of see authentic and believable emotion in that scene, if I interpret it as Jon trying to stay emotionally and physically restrained on purpose to make their separation easier and to help Ghost understand that it is a real goodbye. But I don't want to make excuses for The DumbsTM.

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