Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[Arakasi]

Anyone who thought they’d ever be able to make a faithful adaptation of the books is kidding themselves. The series is 14 books long. Would I like a faithful adaptation of books 1-6 which are my fav? Sure but that would eat up an entire run of a series and you still have 8 books to go.

[Poobah]

Only had time to see the first episode but so far seems like a big upgrade over season 1. Had a glance at the metacritic since it was mentioned... some big variance in reviewer scores - some very high scores and some quite average ones but also one very low one and some others on the lower side. Gotta wait and see how it shakes out. 

[IFR]

35 minutes ago, Arakasi said:

Anyone who thought they’d ever be able to make a faithful adaptation of the books is kidding themselves. The series is 14 books long. Would I like a faithful adaptation of books 1-6 which are my fav? Sure but that would eat up an entire run of a series and you still have 8 books to go.

I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the alternative to complete fidelity is highly disconnected from the source material. And we can delve into the particulars of whether "highly disconnected" is fairly applied here in future posts, but from the spoilers I've read I think that's a very accurate description of the approach of this show.

There recently was released a highly acclaimed movie that somehow managed to be faithful to its source material while distilling a three hour narrative from a book of 800 pages. The first season of Game of Thrones still had to abridge material from the book and it had nearly ten hours to cover the material, just to give an idea of how highly abridged this movie was of the original book. That movie is Oppenheimer, and it is excellent and very faithful.

It can be done. But not by the writers of this show, clearly.

Edited September 1, 2023 by IFR

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, IFR said:

I think it's disingenuous to suggest that the alternative to fidelity is highly disconnected from the source material. And we can delve into the particulars of whether "highly disconnected" is fairly applied here in future posts, but from the spoilers I've read I think that's a very accurate description of the approach of this show.

There recently was released a highly acclaimed movie that somehow managed to be faithful to its source material while distilling a three hour narrative from a book of 800 pages. The first season of Game of Thrones still had to abridge material from the book and it had nearly ten hours to cover the material, just to give an idea of how highly abridged this movie was of the original book. That movie is Oppenheimer, and it is excellent and very faithful.

It can be done. But not by the writers of this show, clearly.

The Expanse is another faithful adaptation of a sprawling series, baring one major change in season 5, and of course, not finishing the book series. Changes they made to the books often improved things, like giving more depth to certain characters and relying on visual cues to tell part of the story. Minor characters were often brought to the fore in ways that made the world lived in and made you sympathize with them.

Here, OTOH... What was the point in making Agelmar Jagad an arrogant douche? Just to elevate his sister? Who then also dies stupidly. 

[David Selig]

The first 3 episodes of this season were what I was hoping for and didn't get from the first one since I knew a faithful adaptation was extremely unlikely - a pretty loose adaptation which is quality TV and maintains a lot of the spirit of the books. The production values have improved a lot and so has the writing.  It's still not what I'd call great TV, but I watched 3 episodes back and back and never felt bored. I rolled my eyes a few times at some of the writing choices, but much less than in most episodes of the previous season. And as one of the rare Elayne fans in the fandom I am quite happy with her TV version so far, the actress was great and the writing for her surprisingly good for the most part.

[fionwe1987]

Faithfulness at the level of every plot point was impossible.

But they could have been faithful to the lore and presented another turning of the Wheel. 

A more lean version of the story of WoT would be a definite improvement on the books, but that would require keeping parts of the world that were interesting, and focusing on the core characters.

That's not close to what we're getting. That said, the first 3 books are the most tonally different from the rest of the series. So who knows, maybe they'll turn it around.

[fionwe1987]

Just now, David Selig said:

And as one of the rare Elayne fans in the fandom I am quite happy with her TV version so far, the actress was great and the writing for her surprisingly good for the most part.

I'm excited for this. I'm an Elayne fan too. But I'm one of those rare folks who found the women less annoying than the men. Even Faile rubs me the wrong way less than Perrin, most of the time. 

[Werthead]

Episode 3 was a step down from the first two, with some nice ideas but some really WTF moments as well.

They also pulled a bit of a Witcher Season 2 as well.

Spoiler

Alas poor Uno! I like the defiance of how he went out, but still, killing off a fan-favourite C-lister at this very early point does feel like a deliberate ploy to the annoy the fans.

OTOH, the extended Nynaeve in the arches sequence I thought worked quite well, and Rand showing his strategic planning side early with his plan to enlist Logain as his tutor I thought worked well. It felt like they were combining Logain with Asmodean, with Min replacing Thom in Tar Valon and Verin replacing Vandene. These are all reasonable moves in a highly truncated version of the story, even if Verin feels a bit too Machiavellian at this point compared to the books.

Good casting for Sheriam, feels very on-point. Not so sure about the choice to make Liandrin a more complex and tragic character with her caring for her very old son (although a nice way of showing the lifespan of an Aes Sedai). Her prominence is also bemusing: it feels like they should have brought in Elaida to do her role, as it feels like they are putting so much weight on Show Liandrin that having her betray the Tower and turn full Black Ajah now would be a bit of a waste of her character development.

Also a bold choice to have Rand meet Selene and hook up with her completely off-screen between seasons.

They've solved the music mix problem as well, Lorne Balfe's score comes much more through and his themes for Season 2 seem stronger than S1.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Werthead

[karaddin]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Episode 3 was a step down from the first two, with some nice ideas but some really WTF moments as well.

They also pulled a bit of a Witcher Season 2 as well.

  Hide contents

Alas poor Uno! I like the defiance of how he went out, but still, killing off a fan-favourite C-lister at this very early point does feel like a deliberate ploy to the annoy the fans.

OTOH, the extended Nynaeve in the arches sequence I thought worked quite well, and Rand showing his strategic planning side early with his plan to enlist Logain as his tutor I thought worked well. It felt like they were combining Logain with Asmodean, with Min replacing Thom in Tar Valon and Verin replacing Vandene. These are all reasonable moves in a highly truncated version of the story, even if Verin feels a bit too Machiavellian at this point compared to the books.

Good casting for Sheriam, feels very on-point. Not so sure about the choice to make Liandrin a more complex and tragic character with her caring for her very old son (although a nice way of showing the lifespan of an Aes Sedai). Her prominence is also bemusing: it feels like they should have brought in Elaida to do her role, as it feels like they are putting so much weight on Show Liandrin that having her betray the Tower and turn full Black Ajah now would be a bit of a waste of her character development.

Also a bold choice to have Rand meet Selene and hook up with her completely off-screen between seasons.

They've solved the music mix problem as well, Lorne Balfe's score comes much more through and his themes for Season 2 seem stronger than S1.

I think that

Spoiler

Liandrin has to be black still because she's already outright lied on screen - she explicitly told Mat that they didn't mention him in the letter when they did. The only way that could be compatible with the oaths is if she has been receiving copies of the letters that have already been edited to remove that without her knowledge which seems unlikely compared to this being an early hint she's black.

I really enjoyed these 3 episodes. Didn't agree with every decision but I can roll with it for the most part. Main one I'm not loving is

Spoiler

By having Nynaeve's third arch get ruined by a Trolloc attack it loses the component of "she's giving up that life" because the life with Lan is already gone. The problem is that they'd already heavily cribbed from it for Rand's temptation at the Eye in the last episode of s1 so felt they had to make them more different.

I also don't love Moiraine telling Lan he failed her as part of trying to push him away to protect him. No issues with it from an oath perspective as there was enough technical truth to it, but he doesn't deserve it and she knows it.

I saw it pointed out that there's some excellent foreshadowing they managed to drop in here very subtly

Spoiler

The lesson that Nyn was failing was running a substance through two overlapping weaves to filter and purify it which sets up how saidin will be cleansed later. It was also just an excellent choice as a weave that technically fits what Nyn was complaining about learning (ie cleaning) while being an incredibly useful one and her way out of the lesson fit her.

ETA: Regarding Liandrin

Spoiler

I do think it looks like Elaida is on the chopping block and I agree I'm not sure how well that's going to work if Liandrin replaces her on the Amyrlin seat given she's actually black. I feel like it's important that Elaida wasn't actually.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by karaddin

[Poobah]

I'm through episode 3 now. Overall positive, definitely an improvement over the first season by a ton. There's a few things I dislike and a few others I'm withholding judgement on but willing to give them time to see how they play out.

Spoilers for the show and books:

Spoiler

I enjoyed seeing Ishamael sewing seeds of doubt in Perrin - his arc is so internal in the books they had to do something to vocalise it and this was a good way, taking inspiration from the dream sequences he drags the boys in to in the books. I also like seeing the more competent, seductive, and manipulative Lanfear - she's still got and briefly shows flashes of her dangerously obsessive, controlling, "stalker ex-girlfriend" self which is good too, but showing her wrapping Rand around her little finger and getting her hooks well and truly in to him is great. It will give a lot more tension and weight to what will come later (in the books her relationship with Rand is all in her head, here much less so) with both her jealousy and her offers to ally with and help Rand perhaps seeming much more of a dangerous and tempting possibility.

Yeah the stuff with Liandrin getting more depth and her prominence so far is leaving me a little... unsure what they're going to do with her I suppose? She's still a nasty manipulative evil little creature though and that's showing too in the little things which is good at least. I definitely don't want to see her merged with Elaida, I think that'd be a mistake. I agree that it doesn't make sense to have the Amyrlin be black, the whole point of Elaida was that she wasn't a darkfriend, she was just egotistical, self-absorbed, kinda unstable, and ultimately just... wrong. Having her as a puppet but an unreliable and mercurial one allowed Mesaana/Alviarian some victories and allowed for a slow decline for the tower but also allowed it to be saved. If you have a darkfriend actually sitting in the seat I find it hard to see how things could play out in a similar manner.

I am a little concerned that we're not seeing too many named Aes Sedai characters introduced - I know it's hard, possibly unfeasible to get a person cast for a background appearance here or there, or even a short scene and then rely on being able to get them back years later because you name dropped them as a major future character, but there are so many big name Aes Sedai who should be loitering around the Tower and it feels a bit awkward/weird with only Alanna, Liandrin, Sheriam, and Leane showing their faces whenever an Aes Sedai is called for in a scene. All the bit-part background character Aes Sedai are completely forgettable because that's what they are thus far. The absence of Elaida in particular is kinda glaring but there are tons upon tons of Aes Sedai movers and shakers, enough that you could name drop a few of them and if their actors aren't available to come back when you need them it's no big loss because there're a dozen others.

Nynaeve is my favourite book character and thus far I'm not quite there on this version of her. I didn't do a rewatch but I feel like I had a stronger liking for her portrayal/writing in the first season; here she seems rather unsure and kinda sulky, she's lacking the drive and determination that her book counterpart has. Nynaeve's always been a more mature character than the teenaged protagonists, saddled with responsibility early and already growing in to it she already knows who and what she is, her arc was never about finding herself, it was about becoming a better version if it, losing her insecurities, expanding her mission/purpose from protecting and healing a small group of people, a village, to the entire world. I'm not really seeing enough of that sense of purpose yet. Her "fuck you I'm out" speech in her third test was closely inspired by what she tells Amyrlin Egwene and the others in book 13 after her Aes Sedai test when they're considering failing her, which was a nice touch. She's is a person who is never going to give a shit about the title, about the pomp and the false airs they put on... I just want to see a bit more of the connected part of her personality that is driven to help people, because the bit of the speech they missed out was where she says that having or not having the title won't define or affect her, that she's still gonna do her thing, still going to help people regardless of whether or not they let her in their stupid clique.

I do like that they're laying a bit of groundwork for Egwene being really shitty to Nynaeve later on, and for how their paths diverge so hugely from the tight mentor-mentee relationship they had early on, which the books don't really justify well. It's a nice read to have Egwene be jealous of Nynaeve and the attention she's getting even as Nynaeve rejects it, it's a logical and true way to have things play out and we're already seeing where their personalities and dreams diverge. Egwene being so driven to be an Aes Sedai, her whole perfect student shtick and how she's resenting the fact that Nynaeve is stronger than her and being a squeaky wheel getting all the attention but doesn't want it.

 

[karaddin]

@Poobah it's the second time they've had

Spoiler

Dark characters gaslighting Perrin about his abilities being aligned with the dark - that was one of the things I thought was a nice touch in their attempt to salvage the end of the season 1 after Mat left. Fain told him that picking up the axe was essentially giving into the dark. I think this angle works for how they're trying to manipulate him.

The Egwene stuff also builds nicely on a moment from the first season

Spoiler

When they're introduced to the Amyrlin - Siuan is talking about how she's the greatest channeler they've found in a thousand years and Egwene was preening, thinking it was about her, and then deflates immediately once Siuan says Nun's name.

I get your half reservations on Nynaeve, I think that's going to just be while she's going through this part of her character arc and won't last too long.

[Corvinus85]

The last season left me feeling like I don't really care much about any of the characters, and they can all go on their own little quests and not meet again. (which was totally not my feeling when I read the books as I was always excited to see major characters reunite)

With that feeling among others I've now watched the 1st episode. It was Ok. Once again, Rand gets left behind, quite literally this time, for development purposes.

Lan has been massively nerfed from the book version. Sure, the Fades are terrifying, one of the few aspects the show has nailed, but come on.

For some reason, I always imagined that Illianers spoke with a Jamaican sort of accent, but I'll take Scottish, too. 

Spoiler

The Bel Tine theme was nice and brought some consistency to both the character arcs and the world building. 

I wonder if non-readers caught Liandrin's lie about Perrin's letters. I mean it was fairly obvious, but it was a blatant lie not a twist of words, so I'm curious if people caught it.

However, how do Perrin's letters get to people? He seems to be mostly in the wilderness.

Ishamael's scene with the little girl was weird.

 

[fionwe1987]

As someone who totally loaned season 1, I can say Season 2 is off to an incredible start. I'm not sold on everything yet, but while I found the changes from the book purely baffling in the first season, here they seem to have made smart choices that are even kinda-sorta making the shit show that was the end of season 1 seem palatable for the long-term arcs of the characters.

They've definitely cribbed a lot from later books, which makes me think the changes down the line are going to be even more dramatic. But they do seem to be becoming more coherent, at least. 

Also, the showrunners seem to see Mat exactly the way I do. 

Quote

 

Spoiler

It was confusing to have Liandrin of all people read him so right. I found it frankly annoying that Mat barely gets called out for his BS in the books in the way the other characters do. All the others have to wrestle with the consequences of their limitations, but Mat just doesn't in a way I found satisfying.

 

Having that be called out early might actually make the rest of his arc more fun. And it's in tune with Mat's character in the books, especially at this stage, perfectly. It's just more explicit, which I'm enjoying.

 

I'm pretty sure they're merging Liandrin with Galina, not Elaida.

 

I think it's smart to keep Elaida to later. I'm wondering if Rand will even get to meet her, just in a later season. 

 

Also, they've name dropped quite a few Aes Sedai. It was amusing to see Cadsuane mentioned and so obviously compared with Egwene too. Lots of good foreshadowing like that, all pointing to the main story beats, though how they deliver those will always be interesting.

 

I'm glad to see Ishmael and Lanfear so much more competently portrayed. The basic plot of the first three books was about getting the Two Rivers gang seduced, but so much was focussed on building the broader world and keeping it secret that it was Ishmael cosplaying the Dark One all along that the temptation stuff was watered down.

 

Also, I loved the confrontation between Egwene and Liandrin. They laid bare right there the core of her character: keeping your head down and following the rules to learn doesn't make you a moron. It just means you know better than to think you have the answer before you can even conceive of the question.

 

The emphasis on the World of Dreams, and the ability to find your own realities that trap you, even if they're made by the Dragon Reborn, is smart, because that's what Rand ends up doing, with the Dark One, in the Last Battle. The Arches are another way to get to these, but the World of Dreams is where this all originates.

I was not prepared to be interested in this show again. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by fionwe1987

[SpaceChampion]

Reminder, this thread is book-spoilers inclusive, those wanting to discuss without book spoilers need to make a separate thread.

 

The bald Aes Sedai that briefly appear is according to the on-screen material Joiya Byar.  If they are altering Liandrin's trajectory, they might give someone else like Joiya the job of kidnapping Egwene and delivering her to the Seanchan.

BTW, it never occurred to me before in 30 years to wonder if she's related to the Whitecloak, Jaret Byar.  But they're probably not related in the show, having vastly different complexions.  

Wait, her last name is suppose to be Byir.

Edited September 2, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[fionwe1987]

On Liandrin

Quote

 

Spoiler

It is clear that her son is the way the Shadow controls her, in some ways. He's kept alive but in pain, potentially as punishment for trying to find and kill the Dragon as a child, and the whole Vileness conspiracy from New Spring. Keeping relatives alive and in pain is used to control multiple Darkfriends in the books.

They may be merging her with Alviarin as well, but I think not. We're going to need more than two (well three, if you count Verin) named Black sisters, so there's plenty of time before more than Liandrin and Sheriam emerge. Galina and Sheriam were under Alviarin anyway, and it makes sense to hold her off for later. She's utterly forgettable in Great Hunt.

Quote

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by fionwe1987

[IlyaP]

Wife and I are watching the first 3 episodes. We're 2 in so far and thoroughly confused, as long-time WoT fans. 

Why is this show so astonishingly bad at explaining geography, names, characters, how much time has passed, and what the hell is even going on?

I've decided this is some unfathomly stupid turning of the wheel where the creator has decided to just throw reasoning and logic to the wind, because we've been sitting here asking "WHO ARE YOU?" about multiple characters alongside "where is this even taking place?!" Like why do they put in the name Carhienin, and then....nothing else? This is Witcher season 1 level bad. 

[fionwe1987]

The geography is fucked up because they need to keep the plot moving. But they should really have a map shown somewhere. None of the geography and timelines makes much in the way of sense, here, if it resembles anything from the books.

 

[SpaceChampion]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

The geography is fucked up because they need to keep the plot moving. But they should really have a map shown somewhere. None of the geography and timelines makes much in the way of sense, here, if it resembles anything from the books.

 

They always have a map in the X-Ray feature.  This for example: https://i.imgur.com/9HL9J2f.png

Since it's been about 5 months I think Egwene said, we can presume it took Perrin's group 5 months to get from Shienar to Atuan's Mill.

Seems like they're just relying on the fact that it is a streamer with in-scene bonus material to convey map and place name and character name information.

The lady Rand was talking to in the party is Anvaere, Moiraine's sister.

For some reason they changed the king of Cairhien to a queen.  This might be confusing for newbs who don't know the difference between Cairhien and Andor.

Edited September 2, 2023 by SpaceChampion

[Maltaran]

I like a lot of the changes they’ve made -

Spoiler

bringing Elyas in for Hurin, for example, and having Rand and Selene actually being a couple

One thing I don’t like. While the actor who plays Ishamael is doing very well at conveying a suitably menacing presence, I find it difficult to take him seriously when every time he speaks his accent reminds me of Nandor the Relentless.

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

They always have a map in the X-Ray feature.  This for example: https://i.imgur.com/9HL9J2f.png

Since it's been about 5 months I think Egwene said, we can presume it took Perrin's group 5 months to get from Shienar to Atuan's Mill.

Seems like they're just relying on the fact that it is a streamer with in-scene bonus material to convey map and place name and character name information.

 

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

The lady Rand was talking to in the party is Anvaere, Moiraine's sister.

I don't know that she's meant to be her sister in the show. She seems to be taking the place of Barthanes, who was a cousin of Moiraine's, and a Darkfriend, looking to take the throne. 

2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

For some reason they changed the king of Cairhien to a queen.  This might be confusing for newbs who don't know the difference between Cairhien and Andor.

Surely, two nations can have queens without things becoming confusing? The newbs are used to shows where every nation has a king. Multiple nations having a queen can't be that confusing. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by fionwe1987