Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[Gigei]

Good points, everyone. I hope the rest of the season is good, there are a lot of things I'm really looking forward to.

P.S. I saw in some other forums Liandrin's "not a mention of Mat Cauthon" could technically be not a lie.

- The letters wouldn't have said "Mat Cauthon" because they would've only said "Mat"

- And/or he was mentioned more than once

[Gertrude]

Right, there' are ways to twist it. I do think it was meant to be a lie, however, since she said a line to Egwene about Aes Sedai not being able to lie. Just kind of pushes the point home a bit.

[The Anti-Targ]

For people who only watch the show and don't yet get the many ways Aes Sedai can squirm their way around the truth oath (or even that it is a magically binding oath - has the oath rod been talked about in the show yet?) the reveal that the letters mention Mat and Liandrin very obviously saying that there was no mention of Mat in the letters is a very obvious lie to such viewers, who are paying close enough attention.

I guess the next thing to offer a clue that dark-friend AS are a thing will be the [not] killing with the OP oath being mentioned and in the same or next episode an AS killing someone  with the OP without there being an obvious way for the extreme duress exception to apply. Though extreme duress is in the mind of the killer. It's not like you can get around the killing oath by means of intellectual rationalisation, the AS has to genuinely feel extreme duress to be able to kill using the OP if they are bound by the OP, but what causes an AS to feel extreme duress will be different from individual to individual. 

[hauberk]

6 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

For people who only watch the show and don't yet get the many ways Aes Sedai can squirm their way around the truth oath (or even that it is a magically binding oath - has the oath rod been talked about in the show yet?) the reveal that the letters mention Mat and Liandrin very obviously saying that there was no mention of Mat in the letters is a very obvious lie to such viewers, who are paying close enough attention.

I guess the next thing to offer a clue that dark-friend AS are a thing will be the [not] killing with the OP oath being mentioned and in the same or next episode an AS killing someone  with the OP without there being an obvious way for the extreme duress exception to apply. Though extreme duress is in the mind of the killer. It's not like you can get around the killing oath by means of intellectual rationalisation, the AS has to genuinely feel extreme duress to be able to kill using the OP if they are bound by the OP, but what causes an AS to feel extreme duress will be different from individual to individual. 

I feel like we saw a great serpent ring at the dark friend social in the first episode of the season, along with a Shienarien tabard, Seanchan nails and maybe a couple of other hints.  Maybe it was too quick?

[Corvinus85]

8 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

For people who only watch the show and don't yet get the many ways Aes Sedai can squirm their way around the truth oath (or even that it is a magically binding oath - has the oath rod been talked about in the show yet?) the reveal that the letters mention Mat and Liandrin very obviously saying that there was no mention of Mat in the letters is a very obvious lie to such viewers, who are paying close enough attention.

I guess the next thing to offer a clue that dark-friend AS are a thing will be the [not] killing with the OP oath being mentioned and in the same or next episode an AS killing someone  with the OP without there being an obvious way for the extreme duress exception to apply. Though extreme duress is in the mind of the killer. It's not like you can get around the killing oath by means of intellectual rationalisation, the AS has to genuinely feel extreme duress to be able to kill using the OP if they are bound by the OP, but what causes an AS to feel extreme duress will be different from individual to individual. 

The oath rod was even shown in season 1 when Moiraine swore on it to not return to the Tower until Siuan called her back.

[fionwe1987]

23 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

You mean his buddy who was a better swordsman but was overconfident? Lan fights off 6 men in an earlier scene in that book.

But not 6 fades. A single fade takes his whole attention in Eye of the World, multiple times. Blademasters struggle with single Myrdraal, especially early in the books. 

23 hours ago, IFR said:

Right, and in the show Nynaeve is effortlessly killing Trollocs left and right, and a severed and lightly armed Moiraine is murdering Fades. The martial abilities of Lan do not seem particularly remarkable contextualized in the show. He's occasionally competent, but often not. I sincerely expect a scene later in the show where Nynaeve defeats him in combat in some way.

Are we really back to the "Who is the UBERSwordsman?" days? Lan is about as impressive in the show as he is in the books, at this stage. 

As for Nynaeve killing Trollocs, the women of Two Rivers stand against an entire horde, fairly successfully. 

This is a baffling argument, honestly. Lan is the best swordsman because he knows to stand his ground, take a hit, not give up, and keep on. The books show this, only, I dunno, a gazillion times? Lan is not the fastest. The strongest. The youngest. He's just all about not giving up, whether it's in New Spring or all the way in the end fighting Demandred. 

21 hours ago, Gertrude said:

For me, Nyneave's tests were more cohesive in the show. They all work to give her the reason she needs to stay and train in the Tower - she can't protect those she loves otherwise. Sure, she failed the test as understood by the Aes Sedai, but she did emerge in the end, so that's a win. She Kobayashi Maru'd the arches. I saw her burst of channeling at the end willing the arches into being unconsciously. If we think the arches have something to do with T'A'R, then what she did feels like using need. 

Yes. These tests are different, but work well together and with the plot of the show as it is. 

21 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

 

21 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Regarding Moiraine's storyline.  It makes sense if they're going to kill off Siuan, to have Moiraine take up her plotlines from the books.  They have to cannibalize someone's plotline for Rosamund Pike, and better Siuan than Cadsuane.

It would make no sense to kill Siuan and put Moiraine with Egwene and the Rebels. It'd be a waste of her character, frankly. She only comes into her own after the coup. 

[Poobah]

 

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

This is a baffling argument, honestly. Lan is the best swordsman because he knows to stand his ground, take a hit, not give up, and keep on. The books show this, only, I dunno, a gazillion times? Lan is not the fastest. The strongest. The youngest. He's just all about not giving up, whether it's in New Spring or all the way in the end fighting Demandred. 

I mostly agree but want to add to this that one of the big themes with Lan is that he's so deadly because he's not just prepared to die, he wants to die. For the vast majority of the series in his mind he's already dead, it's just his honour compels him to keep fighting until something can kill him and he can finally be free of the enormous burden he feels he's trapped labouring under. The whole saying about duty being heavy as a mountain but death light as a feather can be seen as a suicidal mantra, that death will free him. It's why he's so distant and emotionally closed because it makes it easier for him and this is the (almost disastrously incorrect) lesson he passes on to Rand when posing as a role model to him. 

The arcs for both men are about how dying is an easy choice and it's living and having things to live for that is the difficult and heroic thing to strive for. That a sacrifice when you want to die, is worthless it's no sacrifice at all and will achieve nothing. That you find far more strength in life than you ever could when seeking death. 

[The Anti-Targ]

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

The oath rod was even shown in season 1 when Moiraine swore on it to not return to the Tower until Siuan called her back.

Completely forgot. I should really re-watch season 1. 

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, Poobah said:

 

I mostly agree but want to add to this that one of the big themes with Lan is that he's so deadly because he's not just prepared to die, he wants to die. For the vast majority of the series in his mind he's already dead, it's just his honour compels him to keep fighting until something can kill him and he can finally be free of the enormous burden he feels he's trapped labouring under. The whole saying about duty being heavy as a mountain but death light as a feather can be seen as a suicidal mantra, that death will free him. It's why he's so distant and emotionally closed because it makes it easier for him and this is the (almost disastrously incorrect) lesson he passes on to Rand when posing as a role model to him. 

The arcs for both men are about how dying is an easy choice and it's living and having things to live for that is the difficult and heroic thing to strive for. That a sacrifice when you want to die, is worthless it's no sacrifice at all and will achieve nothing. That you find far more strength in life than you ever could when seeking death. 

Yes, though Moiraine's death and the snapping of their bond is what makes him truly hunger for death. That's the typical response to the bond snapping, which is why it would be weird if that whole thing gets removed.

[Wouter]

Preview for episode 4:

Alanna no doubt is referring to the moment when Moiraine (and Siuan) learned about the Dragon, with Gitara Moroso.

 

This episode is written by Dave Hill.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Wouter

[Cas Stark]

I don't think I will make it through season 2.  This show is fucking terrible, worse than I remembered, it's like Zena the Warrior Princess but with a massive budget.  It's only saving graces are Rosamund Pike and good production.  

[Arakasi]

Hmm not what I’m seeing at all. Maybe you wandered out of the ring of power thread.

[Zorral]

Nothing is making a story/plot here -- I gave up  about half way through the first episode of this new season.  Nor was there a glimmer of memory about anything from the first season other than landscapes.  Have no idea who is who or why who is who.

Fhew!

[Arakasi]

Perrin is hunting the horn, Mat has been stuck in a cell, Moiraine is doing Moiraine things, Rand is trying to figure stuff about channeling and the girls are learning in the tower. I do agree there was a jump on Perrin and the sheinarians from where they were in episode eight to episode one here but other than that it seems fairly obvious. I do agree there is a bit of a reset but giving what happened to production with Covid on episode eight of season one I’m cutting them a bit of slack.

[fionwe1987]

Ok episode 4... sigh. I'm much less behind the changes here.

Spoiler

Moiraine confronting Lanfear this early...just doesn't work. 

They've also made a complete botch of the Warder bond thing. It's going to be incredibly dumb when it turns out the bond wasn't broken all along, and despite all the statements from everyone, no one figured out that Lan wasn't going through what a Warder whose bond has snapped would go through. 

Min being an almost Darkfriend... I mean, it's clear she won't turn, already. There's no suspense even if you don't know anything about the books. Should this be chalked up to recovering from having to write Mat out of the end of the 1st season? It doesn't make sense as a plot point, otherwise.

Also, why was Liandrin dressed in Black? I get why they did it to make things clear to the audience, but it seems remarkably stupid of her to advertise. 

Moiraine blindly trusting her sister to have remained unchanged, and not noticing the much improved circumstances of their House (based on them needing to beg for food)...the less said about this the better. This whole burned out Moiraine story is just not working.

And where is Siuan? I'm now fairly certain the answer will be stupid. And somehow be Cairhein.

This was a meh episode. 

[Corvinus85]

OK, halfway through the season now, and other than some revelation, not much plot advancement. 

That being said, this episode had some good moments.

Perrin

Spoiler

Perrin's storyline got a nice boost with finally giving the audience a lot of info about his abilities, including the name. I think the way he sees the wolf speak is a bit simplistic, but that was always going to be challenging, maybe one of the most challenging aspects of the book to adapt. Still a few lines of dialogue, about smells and sounds accompanying the visuals would have been nice. I liked him figuring out Hopper's name.

The prophecy reveal

Spoiler

I think for the first time ever, I can say that the show did something better than the books. I never really understood why Padan Fain wrote that prophecy in Fal Dara - felt like a way for Jordan to announce to the reader that a new Forsaken was about. But I liked how it worked here, especially because of how they crafted Rand's relationship with Selene and keeping this thing a secret for a few episodes was better than the DR mystery box from last season. 

Liandrin 

Spoiler

Surely now everyone knows she's a Darkfriend. And not just because of her attack on the girls, but the whole thing with Min and Ishamael.

I quite like the female Cairhienin fashion. Moiraine's dress is half western European, half Japanese. Her sister's attire was really good. I liked that the butler wore simplistic, dark clothes, very much like in the books for the commoners. 

Something must have have happened to the actress who plays Siuan, because yeah, she should have been around by now. The silver lining though is that at least they could write something for Leane.

The episode's end though

Spoiler

hmm, silly. Forsaken are still human how is she healing?

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Corvinus85

[Gertrude]

I used spoilers for last week's drop because three dropped at once and people may not have seen all of them when they wandered in. I kind of feel like spoilers shouldn't be needed now since people probably won't come here until they've seen it?

Anyway, a mixed bag for me this week. I was really liking the ending until I didn't. Just ... what? 

Spoiler

I liked how Lanfear was manipulating Rand and their whole interaction after the attack, and then Moiraine pops in and slits her throat? I don't ... no, I don't like that at all. She was shimmering just before the knife hit - I wonder what that was.

I dislike the Lan story. I mean, I enjoy the interactions in the moment for the most part, but it just feels so disconnected from the rest of the show and I feel like it's getting too much time and I don't really understand why. We can easily cut half of that screen time out and lose nothing IMO. Just put them back together and give Moiraine her powers back please.

Spoiler

So they did reveal Liandrin to the girls, huh? Interesting. I really thought they'd tie her more into the Tower politics but now she really can't be. 

Give me more Mat, please. More dicing, more fun, more adventures. Also, more Hopper, that is all. I agree that how they are depicting Perrin's communication is probably the best choice for this, but it's just okay. I'm hoping that do more than just that in the future because the visions are clunky.

Oh, and what is in Cairhien for Mat? Really don't know where this particular thread is going right now.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Gertrude

[karaddin]

I once again feel like I'm watching a different show to some of you lol, I liked it. 

Spoiler

The Forsaken have already been granted immortality by the Dark One, giving them regeneration as well is hardly beyond him and making them much harder to kill gives a whole lot more motivation to use balefire down the road. Hell maybe this is how they eliminate needing to resurrect them, which is a big change to be sure but one I wanted.

I think the shimmering around Lanfear was either weaves of air when you can't see the weaves, or how saidar weaves appear to a man that can channel - in either case I assume she was making or removing an illusion of some kind.

My wife already thought that Moiraine would be headed to Cairhien to meet up with Rand. I'm not sure what Ishy's reason to want Mat in Cairhien is but I'm pretty sure the meta reason to need him there is Min and Mat joining them before heading into the waste - didn't we get confirmation season 2 would go there over a year ago?

I was also surprised they revealed Liandrin to the show only audience at this point, I thought she was setting Nyn up to go without tipping her hand.

I thought Lan's bond was going to be passed off, but at this point I think it's actually a fake out that is set up for later. That part of the story probably is the least essential part right now but if you're taking it for what it is rather than being annoyed that it's not other stuff it's enjoyable imo. I really like Alanna and her warders though.

No idea how this can feel like nothing happened plot wise though, it felt the opposite to me.

[karaddin]

Saw it pointed out on reddit that

Spoiler

You can see the Saa in Lanfears eyes in the last few seconds and double checked and yup - its subtle and creepy. Also saw someone say that unlike the OP, you can heal yourself with the true power as Ishy does a couple of times. So it might not even be that they're given regeneration, its just basic zombie style rules - need massive brain trauma or they can survive long enough to heal themselves with the true power.

 

[Gertrude]

I'm just going to dispense with spoiler tags, so be warned ...

 

I do agree that making the Forsaken more formidable is a good choice. I think it was just the throat slit that took me off guard and is sitting wrong. That just seemed a step too far. If this dispenses with the resurrections, then I will be happy. My first thought about her shimmering was mask of mirrors too, but I'm not sure what she would be revealing. I don't think they are changing actresses, so what was she planning to do here? Compulsion doesn't seem her MO.

I'm not surprised that Mat would be going to Cairhien, just surprised that Ishy wanted him there. I don't know what his game is with Mat there, so I guess that's where my curiosity comes from. I do like Ishy being Min's contact and giving yet another reason why someone would turn to the dark - achieving an impossible goal. (rather than just power or revenge or whatnot)

And I do enjoy Alanna and her warders and time spent with Lan. Maybe it's my book brain telling me this is all a moot point anyway so it seems like stalling and obvious filler to keep Lan on screen. I would just be happier giving a little more of that time to Mat and Perrin. So little of Mat as of yet is my biggest disappointment so far this season. He's obviously the cheeky Mat we love, so more please   I do love the pairing of him and Min. I am wondering when Mat's luck is going to turn and if it will be before or after Rhuidean. I hope it's before, but I could understand the choice of after.

As for the Wastes, I think Rafe said we would see them. I am currently thinking we will see them in TAR, and that's where the images of Rand on the wheel is. How that will be introduced, no clue, but that seems more likely to me than actually heading into the Wastes at this point.