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[Spoilers] Episode 103 Discussion


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4 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

I was gonna just write down that they also could've decided on more episodes for this season, but I see you mentioning it. 

Not sure about Mysaria tho. I am unable to imagine her fate, because I think the show will go with a Daemon who is faithful to Rhaenyra and all.

yes , I imagine the show will depict Daemon/Rhaenyra match as a very emotional and trusting match which makes sense* .  that's not the point though , what matters is that the last scene we saw of Mysaria was her break up with Daemon and it did not deliver at the slightest .

 

* when it comes to love , I'm pretty much convinced that Laena/Daemon and Harwin/Rhaenyra had deep lasting loves ; which doesn't contradict with Rhaenyra/Daemon love but I hope the show doesn't drop that. 

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1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

yes , I imagine the show will depict Daemon/Rhaenyra match as a very emotional and trusting match which makes sense* .  that's not the point though , what matters is that the last scene we saw of Mysaria was her break up with Daemon and it did not deliver at the slightest .

 

* when it comes to love , I'm pretty much convinced that Laena/Daemon and Harwin/Rhaenyra had deep lasting loves ; which doesn't contradict with Rhaenyra/Daemon love but I hope the show doesn't drop that. 

Then I assume Mysaria will just reappear at one point and the audience will be like: This bitsch still around and relevant?

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The big ugly thing about Alicent in the book we only got when FaB was published in full is the implication that Alicent never actually loved Viserys - hinted at by the fact that she never so much as mentions him in her last days and instead constantly talks about reading to the Old King back in the day. Could also be her trying to reconnect with a golden era long lost ... but Viserys and Alicent also presided over her own golden age during the first couple of years of their marriage. If she had loved the man, she may have also remembered that.

By the way - I actually do enjoy the kind of marriage Alicent and Viserys seem to have. They continue their talks. Alicent is an important advisor for Viserys, despite the fact that it seems he mostly ignores her in public.

Although I must say I also enjoyed how they had the noblewomen and the men be separate in the camps. That's how it would be.

that doesn't necessarily indicate that she didn't love Viserys or didn't care for him. only that he reminded of so much trouble . just the same as color green . then again , she let him rot for 3 days . I don't think one would do that to whom she loved . but it could have been pretty complicated anyway .

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17 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

But there is potential character development. And I think if this show is going to succeed, it ultimately needs to feel... well, more like a novel and less like a history book jumping around from significant event to significant event. And it will need more pugs.

There should always be more Pugs.  Daemon would be a kinder, gentler fellow with a Pug on his lap.  A Pug would help poor over-burdened Viserys relax.  Rhaenys Velaryon might be a bit less steely and a bit more calm if she had a Pug to love, especially now that her kids are growing up and getting into trouble of their own.  And couldn't the Kingsguard use a Pug as a mascot, with a cute white cloak?  

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35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it is clear that Aegon III must eventually retake Harrenhal, but what we know indicates that he didn't rush things in that department. If he had, he would have named a new Lord of Harrenhal in the later 130s or early 140s.

The interesting part isn't that Aegon III had a very public and very relevant rebellion at Harrenhall. It's that it is so mysterious.

Now I get that Aemond JR is a late addition, but he still seems so important. The most logical explanation to me is that he just died or dissapeared relatively quickly. Otherwise this would've become a countrywide issue, a great story to tell, Aegon III would be remarked as kinslayer (ordering the imposter's death or something), despite very much trying to separate from both the Dance and the Dragon parts of the past.

I imagine that in this scenario, even if one of two years later, Daemon (survived the battle, now a somewhat changed man) was just convincing the green men to take the child from his mother, because it only generates further issues, ones you can clearly see the outcome of: The unnecesary death of the child in another bloody war. This could especially be the case if the greenmen could foresee the future of what'll happen if they don't intervene.

His mother could've still stayed around for some years of terror, or Harrenhall simply stayed a royal domain for some time.

It's crackpotish, but I don't mind it either, cause it's irrelevant.

 

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10 hours ago, EggBlue said:

all in all , I found this episode to be weaker than previous ones , although , I'm not sure it's because I was more excited for this one beforehand or not . 

this episode certainly had positive points as well as negative ones . I initially wanted to talk about positive aspects as well, but I see that my complains went on more than I intended , and they all go back to editing , one way or the other.

  • it felt like two episodes . they should have put some  stepstone +crabfeeder scenes in the middle of the hunting/feast scenes . I liked the shift between war in stepstones and feast's extravagant table very much . it showed perfectly well why it's a good idea for Viserys to support the war.... too bad the show went on to finish hunting episode before visiting stepstones . 
  • the tone of the show has become gloomy far too soon . yes , Aemma died in episode one and all, but this felt like it was closing to the end. 
  • they both failed Laenor and did him justice if that makes any sense ! I get that they wanted to show Laenor as Rhaenyra's suitable match by showing him speaking in their council and later attack atop Seasmoke , only to later show he is gay and the marriage would be doomed. they should have introduced Laenor by name in episode one when Corlys talked about Rhaenys already having a son . now that they didn't, they should have had Strong mention his most important advantage : he already rides a dragon ! dragon riding ability must be a HUGE deal when it comes to marriages . the reason Velaryons are as big of a threat as they are is that they also have dragons . Lannisters and any other who want to marry Rhaenyra will become a third dragon riding family! then they go on to the war council where Laenor is supposed to be established as a warrior (which could be edited right after talk of him by Strong by the way!) . but we do not really see him well enough , the focus is on Daemon! 
  • the whole stepstone sequence is a huge failure . I'm not going to say anything about Daemon's plot armor  and the Crab disappointment as only by reading the first page of this thread , I see that it's been discussed enough! the thing with the step stones is that it's been build up, build up, build up for 3 episodes and then a jump right into the conclusion ! there's no middle ! we don't see why Daemon and Velaryons are so frustrated and overwhelmed , we don't see how Daemon is the reason they're losing . we don't see why Vaemond goes behind Corlys's back to send a letter to Viserys himself . we only hear about them ! but that is good enough because we don't EVEN HEAR why the hell Corlys allied himself with Daemon ! we don't see any gold cloaks or men specifically loyal to Daemon . there are all Velaryon men with Velaryon commanders and Velaryon dragon and then there's Daemon , Corlys's "teenager" adopted son with his odd pet ,who is causing them losses through his tantrums !
  • also , let's talk about Laena Velaryon and the most terrible dragon of the time . where are they? I mean ... I'm cool with not showing Laena claiming Vhaegar ;considering later Aemond scene , it would have been repetitive . but man , they needed to show or mention that Laena rides Vhaegar now . they could either put her in Driftmark to hear about Stepstones and pull an episode2 Rhaenyra to take her dragon to trouble without leave  , or they could put her in the court to show us she and Rhaenyra start bonding . but more easily , Strong could mention her in his little advice :" with Vhaegar under lady Laena's command and Laenor riding his own full grown dragon , an alliance with Velaryons is more crucial than ever "

 

 

my positive points all go to the Greens . as much of a Black supporter that I am , it's good to see they try to show Green councilors (Alicent , Tyland ,Larys , even to a certain surprising extend Otto ) as good guys and , in case of Tyland , possessing a brain and empathy for the realm. although , I preferred very much for Alicent to suggest Aegon and Rhaenyra's match after talking with her father about Aegon's rights, torn between what her faith has taught her to be her son's right and her faith in her old friend . 

 

In the books, Tyland is kind of arrogant and ruthless, only to become Aegon’s diligent and dutiful Hand and guardian after the war ends. It’s easier to see how this Tyland would take on that role than the version of him we meet after Viserys’ death.

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I think they are doing a pretty good job considering they have to adapt 20 years of timeline into 7-8 episodes. Each jump is going to be noticeable but I think it's been done organically so far. It could have been far worse.

"Weakest" episode of the three, but it's still far better than the last seasons of GOT. I love Rhaenyra's actress and I'm afraid I'm not going to like the older one as much as I like Milly. 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

To me the main issue is what the plan is: it expects that Daemon running around like Lancelot at a wedding will lead all the Triarchy's men to come out after him. It's completely and utterly nonsensical. Now, as I said, I accept some narrative corners being cut because they have a very tough job, and the way they did it just let Daemon be as outrageously fearless as can be.

If there's one man who could take out a whole army like Lancelot at a wedding...or Richard the Lionheart at Acre...it's Daemon F-ing Targaryen, the Rogue Prince!  Oh I'd follow him to hell and back, I would!

Edited by The Dragon Demands
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Jason wanting to have Rhaenyra live  with him as a princess rather than aspiring to be her king consort is the least Lannister-like thing imaginable (although I suppose Kevan or Jaime may have had the same idea).

Judging by online discourse, Lyonel is quickly becoming a fan favorite. We’re all going to mourn for him when he’s gone. 

Speaking of the Strongs, I noticed that, except when Larys stayed behind during the hunt, he and Harwin were usually shown together. We learned nothing about their relationship in the books, so it would be nice if it turned out they were close. 

If it were up to me, this season would cover up to Jace’s birth, with S2 starting with Joffrey’s (and the new actors). Yes, you’d have to include new material, but that’s what writers are for. If I had to venture a guess, HBO probably didn’t want two full seasons before the start of the war.

The white hart thing was a bit confusing. The BTS, as someone mentioned, said that Viserys was both disappointed that he didn’t receive his mystical sign but also relieved because it was confirmation that he shouldn’t disinherit Rhaenyra. I didn’t get any of that from watching the show, just that Viserys was drunk and miserable.

Regarding Vhagar, I’m assuming Corlys refused to permit his 15-year-old daughter to fight in the war. Baela wasn’t allowed to fight in the books either; she only got involved because Aegon showed up on Dragonstone.

As of right now, I don’t think Otto dislikes Rhaenyra. Even at the confrontation on the bridge, he seemed genuinely worried for her safety. He seems to like her in the same way most dads like their daughter’s childhood friends, even after those friends grow up into moody teenagers.

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3 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

2. Aegon, who we just met as a 2 year old boy, is supposed to become a main villain by the end of the season, along with Aemond, who's not even born yet.

We don't know this for sure though, do we? I hated both of them in the books but I wouldn't be shocked if the show at least made Aegon somewhat sympathetic. I also liked the idea someone (I think @Lord Varysmentioned here about Aemond being a reflection of Daemon. Capable of being a monster but not just a monster. 

I suspect Aegon and Rhaenyra are going to start off being rootable and then both become bitter and willing to do worse and worse stuff as the war goes on until at the end nobody is rooting for either of them. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, why would the Strongs not just kill him once he dismounted Caraxes? Because they think the dragon could magically protect him inside the castle structures?

By the way - when Daemon got shot in the opening dragonrider scene it is implied that Caraxes felt the pain, right?

I've wondered about that kinda situation before. I think if they do that, best case scenario there's suddenly a riderless dragon in the middle of their castle with no one to stop it from burning everything. Plus with the "magical bond" the dragon may even seek revenge if its master is killed.  

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18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Judging by online discourse, Lyonel is quickly becoming a fan favorite. We’re all going to mourn for him when he’s gone. 

 

that could be expected . if they are featuring one secondary character pretty damn well , it's Lyonel . do you have insight into popular opinions on other secondary characters? 

I'm not so sure about what they're doing with Velaryons . they(+Harwin) seem to be turning into mere baby making factories . worse than I imagined a few days ago when I said they could do a decent job about them but focus more on their legacies . I mean they lost the opportunity to give us good Laenor moments . and I imagine next time we see Laena she'll flirt with Daemon a bit only to see her die at the opening scene of next episode! same with poor Harwin!

by the way , totally agree about Strong brothers . my new head canon is that Larys sought the opportunity to bring down both Blacks and Greens , in whose rivalry , his family were caught and murdered .

11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 I've wondered about that kinda situation before. I think if they do that, best case scenario there's suddenly a riderless dragon in the middle of their castle with no one to stop it from burning everything. Plus with the "magical bond" the dragon may even seek revenge if its master is killed.  

again , I wonder what they can do with the fact that Aemond atop Vhaegar ( Laena's dragon) will try to kill Daemon ( Laena's husband) and Caraxes( Vhaegar's ..err.. flying body?). 

Edited by EggBlue
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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I actually hope they come up with other suicidal stunts Daemon does during the war - going to Harrenhal  just with his dragon at the beginning of the war could be another such thing. I mean, why would the Strongs not just kill him once he dismounted Caraxes? Because they think the dragon could magically protect him inside the castle structures?

By the way - when Daemon got shot in the opening dragonrider scene it is implied that Caraxes felt the pain, right?

It was rumored that Larys killed his father and brother in the fire, and he’s likely much less popular than Lyonel was. Whoever the next Strong in line was probably hoped that they’d be named the new lord, especially given Rhaenyra’s “special relationship” with Harwin.

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Ok, so they are building up Leanor and Leana's characters but both will have to be gone before the end of the season. 

Alicent is the heart of this show. Emily is doing one of the best acting jobs I have ever seen, the ethereal calm, the anxiety, and the psychological pain is bleeding off the screen, I love it. Not ready for the actor switch. 

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30 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Caraxes( Vhaegar's ..err.. flying body?). 

They may have even been mates for a while. I think the book only mentions Syrax and Caraxes producing eggs but who knows.

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It was rumored that Larys killed his father and brother in the fire, and he’s likely much less popular than Lyonel was. Whoever the next Strong in line was probably hoped that they’d be named the new lord, especially given Rhaenyra’s “special relationship” with Harwin.

There's also the possibility that Viserys ordered it, only meaning to kill Harwin so he'd never be able to say Rhaenyra's kids were his. I think I prefer that. Reminds me a bit of Jaehaerys killing that Beesebury dude in single combat because he'd dishonored Saerra. 

I'm looking forward to hopefully getting a better understanding of Larys as he's such an enigma in the books. But that said even if he desired Harrenhall why give the order then? It's the timing that points to Viserys I think. 

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6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Ok, so they are building up Leanor and Leana's characters but both will have to be gone before the end of the season. 

Alicent is the heart of this show. Emily is doing one of the best acting jobs I have ever seen, the ethereal calm, the anxiety, and the psychological pain is bleeding off the screen, I love it. Not ready for the actor switch. 

Especially since all the promo material makes adult Alicent look like a lunatic.

I expect both Laenor and Laena’s deaths to prompt backlash. So far my Internet-Meltdown-O-Meter has been on point.

In fairness to the showrunners though, I don’t get the impression that they’re deliberately trying to shock people like on GOT (or Euphoria lol). They do appear to be trying to make something genuinely artistic.

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5 minutes ago, RumHam said:

They may have even been mates for a while. I think the book only mentions Syrax and Caraxes producing eggs but who knows.

There's also the possibility that Viserys ordered it, only meaning to kill Harwin so he'd never be able to say Rhaenyra's kids were his. I think I prefer that. Reminds me a bit of Jaehaerys killing that Beesebury dude in single combat because he'd dishonored Saerra. 

I'm looking forward to hopefully getting a better understanding of Larys as he's such an enigma in the books. But that said even if he desired Harrenhall why give the order then? It's the timing that points to Viserys I think. 

My point is that the other Strongs had reason to mistrust and dislike Larys.

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46 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

that could be expected . if they are featuring one secondary character pretty damn well , it's Lyonel . do you have insight into popular opinions on other secondary characters? 

I'm not so sure about what they're doing with Velaryons . they(+Harwin) seem to be turning into mere baby making factories . worse than I imagined a few days ago when I said they could do a decent job about them but focus more on their legacies . I mean they lost the opportunity to give us good Laenor moments . and I imagine next time we see Laena she'll flirt with Daemon a bit only to see her die at the opening scene of next episode! same with poor Harwin!

by the way , totally agree about Strong brothers . my new head canon is that Larys sought the opportunity to bring down both Blacks and Greens , in whose rivalry , his family were caught and murdered .

again , I wonder what they can do with the fact that Aemond atop Vhaegar ( Laena's dragon) will try to kill Daemon ( Laena's husband) and Caraxes( Vhaegar's ..err.. flying body?). 

Honestly, most of the secondary characters have been overlooked because of how underdeveloped they are. I have seen some cooing over little Laena and thirsting over Harwin though. And book readers are excited about Larys.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

that doesn't necessarily indicate that she didn't love Viserys or didn't care for him. only that he reminded of so much trouble . just the same as color green . then again , she let him rot for 3 days . I don't think one would do that to whom she loved . but it could have been pretty complicated anyway .

That in combination with the rotting issue is pretty telling. She certainly loved to hate Rhaenyra, etc. more than she ever loved Viserys. And it is not the other way around since Rhaenyra does not, in fact, execute Alicent when she could have.

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The interesting part isn't that Aegon III had a very public and very relevant rebellion at Harrenhall. It's that it is so mysterious.

Now I get that Aemond JR is a late addition, but he still seems so important. The most logical explanation to me is that he just died or dissapeared relatively quickly. Otherwise this would've become a countrywide issue, a great story to tell, Aegon III would be remarked as kinslayer (ordering the imposter's death or something), despite very much trying to separate from both the Dance and the Dragon parts of the past.

Pretty sure that will be a big issue. I mean, there were lots and lots of pretty big issues in the early reign of Jaehaerys I, no? Or during Maegor's reign? And we had no idea about any of that prior to FaB. Aegon III's reign could be full of rebellions and civil wars that we know nothing about so far, and they could have significant repercussions (Queen Daenaera, about whose ultimate fate we know nothing, could be murdered, for instance). It stands to reason that not only Alys' son will make trouble for Aegon III but also the fake Daerons we already heard about in a footnote. Aegon III will be an unpopular king, unlike Daeron I or Baelor the Blessed, so it stands that his reign will be troubled and his very kingship will be challenged on more than one occasion.

He will prevail eventually with the help of his brother, his half-sisters, his cousin Alyn Velaryon, and other friends he has. But it might be a close thing.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In the books, Tyland is kind of arrogant and ruthless, only to become Aegon’s diligent and dutiful Hand and guardian after the war ends. It’s easier to see how this Tyland would take on that role than the version of him we meet after Viserys’ death.

We have to wait and see, however you must keep in mind what it means to be an anointed king in this world. Cregan Stark avenged the death of his mortal enemy, Aegon II, because he was an anointed king and didn't deserve to be murdered by his own men. Tyland Lannister may have had similar feelings about Aegon III becoming his monarch after he had been crowned and anointed and his house had sworn fealty to him (as Lady Johanna did).

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jason wanting to have Rhaenyra live  with him as a princess rather than aspiring to be her king consort is the least Lannister-like thing imaginable (although I suppose Kevan or Jaime may have had the same idea).

I guess the Jason in the show isn't that smart of a guy - the books have Tymond Lannister as a drunkard, so there are quite a few unimpressive specimens there, and in the book Jason is neither particularly courageous nor effective. We can imagine that he spend too much time drinking with Lord Hightower and his cronies before talking to Viserys.

In context, one should also not forget that (book) Casterly Rock and Lannisport are, in the end, much more impressive seats than KL and the Red Keep. A not-so-smart Lord of Casterly Rock might prefer it to stay there and have a Targaryen princess as a trophy wife than to go to KL and miss all the comforts of his seat.

Those Lannisters have always lived like kings.

But it would certainly have been smarter to have a Lannister suitor of Rhaenyra's declare his eternal loyalty to her cause and her right to the throne only to be then pissed and nasty once she rejected him. Although I must say that this Rhaenyra likely would have been quite receptive to a proposal of a great lord supporting her claim and being eager to one day seat his own son by Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne.

There the show doesn't seem to deliver ... and this is also something many readers don't seem to get. An heiress - be it to a lordship or a crown - is a great thing for all the nobility who have a chance to marry her. It is their way to possibly gain royal power themselves ... while marrying their sisters or daughters to a king only means that those women end up wearing crowns but not they themselves.

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If it were up to me, this season would cover up to Jace’s birth, with S2 starting with Joffrey’s (and the new actors). Yes, you’d have to include new material, but that’s what writers are for. If I had to venture a guess, HBO probably didn’t want two full seasons before the start of the war.

One can only hope they are not racing through things from season 2 on since the thing is apparently reasonably successful at this point. The dragonseeds need some building up, Daeron, and the Hightower army, too. And if they want to show the actual Dance as a war everywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, there needs to be considerable focus on the Riverlanders. We have to care for them and the Westermen both to give a damn about the Fishfeed and the Butcher's Ball.

I think your breakdown could easily work if they had covered Baelon's death, the Great Council, and Viserys' early reign in 2-3 episodes to then later better flesh out Laenor and Laena and the Strong boys.

As finale one could have a great personal arc involving Rhaenyra being torn between remaining the heir and the feelings she has for Criston Cole and other men. There was potential there for her being so fed up with the court intrigue business that running away may have actually looked like a nice idea for a time.

To have some kind of bigger clash there could have been a secret murder plot/dragon theft thing going on involving one of Saera's bastards who could have been involved in the Triarchy war business.

The second season could have been dealt with the romances and the plots to dominate the court while Viserys' health declined. And, of course, to properly flesh out all the children, including Daeron, who will be absent from the show's first season.

56 minutes ago, RumHam said:

We don't know this for sure though, do we? I hated both of them in the books but I wouldn't be shocked if the show at least made Aegon somewhat sympathetic. I also liked the idea someone (I think @Lord Varysmentioned here about Aemond being a reflection of Daemon. Capable of being a monster but not just a monster. 

From what we have heard it seems that

Spoiler

Aemond starts out sympathetic whereas Aegon will be an ass.

56 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I suspect Aegon and Rhaenyra are going to start off being rootable and then both become bitter and willing to do worse and worse stuff as the war goes on until at the end nobody is rooting for either of them.

I hope Aegon gets a kind of failed emancipation story - always under the thumb of his mother he ends up freeing himself from her ... only to get badly burned and later crippled so that he never is his own man for long, never mind that he wears a crown. But I'm looking forward to him putting Otto in his place.

There is great irony there in Otto trying to keep Daemon away from the throne while having no such desire for his own grandson ... although that guy is even less suited for the throne than Daemon.

56 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I've wondered about that kinda situation before. I think if they do that, best case scenario there's suddenly a riderless dragon in the middle of their castle with no one to stop it from burning everything. Plus with the "magical bond" the dragon may even seek revenge if its master is killed.  

Yes, they could go with something like that ... although even that shouldn't have stopped the Hightowers from imprisoning both Maegor and Visenya once they were stupid enough to land in Oldtown in 43 AC. No dragon ever run amok while his or her rider was imprisoned (e.g. Dreamfyre).

However, I'd like to see the show play this as Daemon flying alone to Harrenhal circling the castle a few times, doing a little show of force, and then just landing in the middle of a large garrison goading them into attacking him ... and them instead backing down although they clearly had the upper hand.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon III's reign could be full of rebellions and civil wars that we know nothing about so far,

I suspect it will be. There's something in The World of Ice and Fire about Aegon III feeling he needed dragons because people were opposing him. Given how much he hated them he must have really been facing some serious threats. 

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