The Fallen Commander

[The Gizzard of Oz]

In A Game of Thrones we are treated to one of Bran Stark's visions.  One line foretold what will happen to Jon.

Quote

Finally he looked north.  He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold.  But there is a deeper meaning.  Warmth is compassion and caring.  We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Jon has chosen his side before he died.  He chose family over duty.  He chose to betray the Night's Watch and everything it has stood for.  He broke the policy of neutrality.  He betrayed justice by sparing Mance Rayder and killing Janos Slynt.  It was corruption through and through.  He sent the Wildling criminal to rescue his sister on a mission that breaks every laws, every ethics of the Night's Watch.  Jon began the destruction of the one institution protecting Westeros from the White Walkers.  That is not all though.  He will come back and he will have the White Walkers to thank for bringing him back.  His heart will be cold and he will bring death to everyone in the North and as far South as he can take his wights.  He will reach the Trident and there he will meet his final ending through Dragonfire. 

[Craving Peaches]

Started out okay, was on the cusp of being an actual discussion about the text, then devolved into Stark bashing. 3/10 is a generous score. Bonus points for quoting the book this time.

[LongRider]

Nothing to see here, move on.

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

 

Aemon's interpretation of 'ice preserves' is that it gave him long life. Not zombiehood.

Also wolves are always described as warm, hot-blooded creatures - especially Ghost; his eyes are described as hot and red, or red fire, or red suns. If Jon forgets what warmth is like, Ghost can remind him.

[LongRider]

Bran's dream can have many interpretations, for instance, Jon did sleep in a cold bed in the ice cells, and he came out alive. There is much more nuance to Jon's story than what you have articulated in your theory.  If you really drill into it, you might see that there is more there than what meets the eye.  His story, like others, isn't only told in Jon's chapters, but in other chapters as well.  Sam of course, but also Cersei, Arya and others.  

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Started out okay, was on the cusp of being an actual discussion about the text, then devolved into Stark bashing. 3/10 is a generous score. Bonus points for quoting the book this time.

Way way way too generous. I’m guessing the haggis was especially good tonight!
For instance, what on earth does the quote below even mean? This person used two lines from the books to give a veneer of legitimacy to yet another dumb af hate thread that, as usual, is full of twisting of the text and either deliberate or stupid interpretations of the text. 
 

7 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

 

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I’m guessing the haggis was especially good tonight!

Well, I was in a good mood, but because I had a nice day out watching the Jousting at Linlithgow!

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, The Gizzard of Oz said:

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold

Oh so when Dany wants to burn him it would be to warm him as a favor? Good to know. Too bad she doesn’t have ice dragons to help people of Meereen.

[Jon Fossoway]

Quote

We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Didn't he utter 'Ghost' when he was falling to the snows?

I do remember when I read AGoT for the first time, and that Bran dream, to me, just meant Bran seeing Jon in his new environment. The Wall is a cold, hard place, and Jon did want to go there and take the vows, even though in reality he had some late hour problems with it. The vision presented Jon in the process of leaving his past (life and warmth) behind as a brother of the Night's Watch. Again, that's my interpretation. I read AGoT more 20 years ago for the first time and I found it very literal in a lot of aspects that nowadays are interpreted over and over to absurdity.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Jon Fossoway

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:37 AM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

In A Game of Thrones we are treated to one of Bran Stark's visions.  One line foretold what will happen to Jon.

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold.  But there is a deeper meaning.  Warmth is compassion and caring.  We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Jon has chosen his side before he died.  He chose family over duty.  He chose to betray the Night's Watch and everything it has stood for.  He broke the policy of neutrality.  He betrayed justice by sparing Mance Rayder and killing Janos Slynt.  It was corruption through and through.  He sent the Wildling criminal to rescue his sister on a mission that breaks every laws, every ethics of the Night's Watch.  Jon began the destruction of the one institution protecting Westeros from the White Walkers.  That is not all though.  He will come back and he will have the White Walkers to thank for bringing him back.  His heart will be cold and he will bring death to everyone in the North and as far South as he can take his wights.  He will reach the Trident and there he will meet his final ending through Dragonfire. 

What fanfiction have you been reading? Whoever told you it was ADWD lied to you.

[Bowen 747]

The Night's King was bad enough.  Jon is much worse.  Traitors like him will get a punishment worse than death.  The same thing Cat got.  To live as a zombie creature. 

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

The Night's King was bad enough.  Jon is much worse. 

That's just stupid. Night's King is treated by everyone as an evil figure, Jon isn't. Have you read the book?

19 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

Traitors like him will get a punishment worse than death. 

Jon isn't a traitor so...?

20 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

The same thing Cat got.  To live as a zombie creature. 

How and why would Catelyn relocate herself from the Riverlands to give Jon, whom she dislikes, the Kiss of Life?

[Fist of the Dragon]

4 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The Night's King was bad enough.  Jon is much worse.  Traitors like him will get a punishment worse than death.  The same thing Cat got.  To live as a zombie creature. 

Man, you hate Jon Snow more than the people of Middle-earth hate the dark lord Sauron.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Fist of the Dragon said:

Man, you hate Jon Snow more than the people of Middle-earth hate the dark lord Sauron.

Except the people of Middle-Earth didn’t make up stupid af reasons to hate Sauron, whereas that’s all the Stark haters here seem to do. It’s so beyond mental…

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:37 AM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

In A Game of Thrones we are treated to one of Bran Stark's visions.  One line foretold what will happen to Jon.

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold.  But there is a deeper meaning.  Warmth is compassion and caring.  We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Jon has chosen his side before he died.  He chose family over duty.  He chose to betray the Night's Watch and everything it has stood for.  He broke the policy of neutrality.  He betrayed justice by sparing Mance Rayder and killing Janos Slynt.  It was corruption through and through.  He sent the Wildling criminal to rescue his sister on a mission that breaks every laws, every ethics of the Night's Watch.  Jon began the destruction of the one institution protecting Westeros from the White Walkers.  That is not all though.  He will come back and he will have the White Walkers to thank for bringing him back.  His heart will be cold and he will bring death to everyone in the North and as far South as he can take his wights.  He will reach the Trident and there he will meet his final ending through Dragonfire. 

Jon will be remembered as the commander whose decisions destroyed the ancient order. He will get the blame because the Starks are no longer in power to erase history.

[Mourning Star]

Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness. The memory made him shiver, despite the warmth of Hodor beside him.
Sleep would not come, could not come. Instead there was wind, the biting cold, moonlight on snow, and fire. He was back inside Summer, long leagues away, and the night was rank with the smell of blood. The scent was strong. A kill, not far. The flesh would still be warm. Slaver ran between his teeth as the hunger woke inside him. Not elk. Not deer. Not this.

Obviously, Bran's initial dream meant that Jon forgot Hodor's birthday. (/s)

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur.

In more seriousness, I think Ghost is the warm memory which Jon may lose.

[Maegor_the_Cool]

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Bran closed his eyes. It was too cold to talk, and they dare not light a fire. Coldhands had warned them against that. These woods are not as empty as you think, he had said. You cannot know what the light might summon from the darkness. The memory made him shiver, despite the warmth of Hodor beside him.
Sleep would not come, could not come. Instead there was wind, the biting cold, moonlight on snow, and fire. He was back inside Summer, long leagues away, and the night was rank with the smell of blood. The scent was strong. A kill, not far. The flesh would still be warm. Slaver ran between his teeth as the hunger woke inside him. Not elk. Not deer. Not this.

Obviously, Bran's initial dream meant that Jon forgot Hodor's birthday. (/s)

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur.

In more seriousness, I think Ghost is the warm memory which Jon may lose.

I think Jon’s resurrection means Ghost will die to return his soul to his body

[Maegor_the_Cool]

On a serious note, I do think Jon will be a Night King esq figure. His resurrection will parallel Daenerys’ pyre scene. Those left will witness his return but realize he is different from the Wights. He’ll get the followers he was after before his death, and I think he may declare himself King on the Wall. If Robb’s Will resurfaces, I could definitely see him declaring himself King of the North. Perhaps the Wildlings declare him their King. Jon will March South to Winterfell to take care of what remains of the Boltons and possibly Stannis.

[Darth Sidious]

Does this universe go through cycles like the seasons. Are seasons the reflection of the greater cycle going on in GM’s universe? It sure looks that way. The pattern is pointing to Jon as the man who becomes the Nights King. The man who stopped being true to the Watch thereby causing its fall. The wall has to fall for the story to move towards climax and conclusion. Jon is the agent of this fall. The Starks tug at his heart and led him from his duties. The death of duty it was called by Aemon. He didn’t do it out of evil though. He did it out of weakness. 

[John Suburbs]

On 7/2/2023 at 11:37 AM, The Gizzard of Oz said:

In A Game of Thrones we are treated to one of Bran Stark's visions.  One line foretold what will happen to Jon.

Why pale?  Jon was stabbed multiple times and has already lost a lot of life blood.  His body grows hard because that is rigor mortis.  The body has died and death brings stiffness.  All that are obviously what happens to somebody who went from dying to death.  Jon will die from his wounds.  His body will follow the normal course of rigor mortis.  The more intriguing part is "as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

It is an easy interpretation, warmth is life and a dead body grows cold.  But there is a deeper meaning.  Warmth is compassion and caring.  We already know what Jon was thinking in his last seconds of life.  Revenge.  Murder.   He wants to murder all of the Crows. 

Jon has chosen his side before he died.  He chose family over duty.  He chose to betray the Night's Watch and everything it has stood for.  He broke the policy of neutrality.  He betrayed justice by sparing Mance Rayder and killing Janos Slynt.  It was corruption through and through.  He sent the Wildling criminal to rescue his sister on a mission that breaks every laws, every ethics of the Night's Watch.  Jon began the destruction of the one institution protecting Westeros from the White Walkers.  That is not all though.  He will come back and he will have the White Walkers to thank for bringing him back.  His heart will be cold and he will bring death to everyone in the North and as far South as he can take his wights.  He will reach the Trident and there he will meet his final ending through Dragonfire. 

Or, it's just hyperbole, like when Thorne says Grenn is strong as an aurochs or the great lords call themselves wolves or lions or dragons.

Bran certainly does not fret over this vision of Jon dying, if that's what he saw.

And I don't see Jon thinking about revenge or murdering all crows. He's trying to defend himself and says "Ghost" just before his last thought (or was it his?): Stick them with the pointy end.