Did Tywin give THAT command?

[Equilibrium]

I've been thinking about extent of Tywin's involvement in Elia's death over the years and I've come to no definitive conclusion so I would like to hear out the reasoning of fine folks here, since we will likely never have the answer spelled out.

We have Tywin explicitly go over the matter with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion VI and we can take him at his word because he probably doesn't care about Tyrion's opinion enough to lie to him. On the other hand I think Tywin could have viewed Elia marrying Rhaegar as a slight to his family's honor by taking Cersei's place and he does have a history of using sexualized violence as punishment. If we take that view which was my initial hunch, we still have the dilemma whether Tywin did give THAT command or said nothing knowing the Mountain would make a mess of it if left to his own devices.

Counter to that could be an attitude that Tywin is too rational to be like that as he would see clearly that 1) Elia wasn't culpable in her marriage, her mother and Aerys are 2) losing her children would be more than enough of the punishment for any perceived slight 3) it's a dicey political move with no real practical benefit and real drawbacks, banking on the both Martells and Robert not doing anything drastic over it, which was far from given as we know how Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark can be.

[kissdbyfire]

I imagine we will never know the answer. My interpretation is that he probably didn’t give specific orders prompting his thugs to do what they did. But indirectly yes, he is responsible b/c he knew the men he was unleashing, he knew they were brutal, and that a direct order wasn’t really necessary. 
Without a direct order he has plausible deniability while still inflicting as much terror as possible. Worst case scenario for him is his men go easier than expected and Elia & her children are captured instead of brutally murdered. It’s a win-win for him. 

[astarkchoice]

No he has enougg deniability

Even then the mountain probably  had a rep for savegery wayy past what necessary...anhome who doubted it coulf stare at his lil.brother or the rumours comming out of clegane house

[Ser Arthurs Dawn]

Tywin is pretty ruthless, and I don't believe he cared whether Elia lived or died. If he did, he would have given the Mountain specific instructions about his wish to keep her alive. Killing her children alone would still be enough to get a rise out of the Martells, even if she lived. The question is, would Robert have kept her as a hostage or let her return home?

Tywin had already played a major game of risk by sacking KL, why not add the Martells to the list of people who loathe the Lannisters? I think we're about to see both decisions come back to bite the remaining Lannisters in the ass.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Ser Arthurs Dawn

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I think it's intentionally supposed to be an unresolved mystery for readers.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Tywin can deny it all he wants, I'm convinced that he knew what he was doing when he sent Gregor Clegane after Elia and the kids. He never forgot that snubbing of his daughter marrying Rhaegar, and this was his revenge come round. Tywin has always been a man who holds onto grievances and grudges, real or imaginary. He never forgives and never forgets. One of the biggest monsters in the series. 

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

I've been thinking about extent of Tywin's involvement in Elia's death over the years and I've come to no definitive conclusion so I would like to hear out the reasoning of fine folks here, since we will likely never have the answer spelled out.

We have Tywin explicitly go over the matter with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion VI and we can take him at his word because he probably doesn't care about Tyrion's opinion enough to lie to him. On the other hand I think Tywin could have viewed Elia marrying Rhaegar as a slight to his family's honor by taking Cersei's place and he does have a history of using sexualized violence as punishment. If we take that view which was my initial hunch, we still have the dilemma whether Tywin did give THAT command or said nothing knowing the Mountain would make a mess of it if left to his own devices.

Counter to that could be an attitude that Tywin is too rational to be like that as he would see clearly that 1) Elia wasn't culpable in her marriage, her mother and Aerys are 2) losing her children would be more than enough of the punishment for any perceived slight 3) it's a dicey political move with no real practical benefit and real drawbacks, banking on the both Martells and Robert not doing anything drastic over it, which was far from given as we know how Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark can be.

I doubt he gave the rape command, if that's what you mean, but he had to know that Elia had to die if her children were going to die. Neither Clegane nor Lorch could very well leave her alive as a witness to their crimes, and it's inconceivable that she would not be with at least one of her children at a time like this. So while the rape was unnecessary, her death was vital.

[sifth]

Probably, it’s in his nature and he has everything to gain. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

4 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

I've been thinking about extent of Tywin's involvement in Elia's death over the years and I've come to no definitive conclusion so I would like to hear out the reasoning of fine folks here, since we will likely never have the answer spelled out.

 

I think he just gave a general order for the Mountain, and the Mountain filled in the blanks.

Also, what are you doing in my palace? 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:55 AM, Equilibrium said:

I've been thinking about extent of Tywin's involvement in Elia's death over the years and I've come to no definitive conclusion so I would like to hear out the reasoning of fine folks here, since we will likely never have the answer spelled out.

We have Tywin explicitly go over the matter with Tyrion in ASOS Tyrion VI and we can take him at his word because he probably doesn't care about Tyrion's opinion enough to lie to him. On the other hand I think Tywin could have viewed Elia marrying Rhaegar as a slight to his family's honor by taking Cersei's place and he does have a history of using sexualized violence as punishment. If we take that view which was my initial hunch, we still have the dilemma whether Tywin did give THAT command or said nothing knowing the Mountain would make a mess of it if left to his own devices.

Counter to that could be an attitude that Tywin is too rational to be like that as he would see clearly that 1) Elia wasn't culpable in her marriage, her mother and Aerys are 2) losing her children would be more than enough of the punishment for any perceived slight 3) it's a dicey political move with no real practical benefit and real drawbacks, banking on the both Martells and Robert not doing anything drastic over it, which was far from given as we know how Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark can be.

Tywin was involved in it up to his green eyes ."A tool for every job. " Was his saying , Tywin knew what manner of people Gregor and Amory were . Tywin did not care he just wanted them Elia ,Aegon and Rhaenys dead .

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Just now, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Tywin was involved in it up to his green eyes ."A tool for every job. " Was his saying , Tywin knew what manner of people Gregor and Amory were . Tywin did not care how it was done ,he just wanted them Elia ,Aegon and Rhaenys dead .

 

[SeanF]

I don’t think he had to give specific orders.  He knew what Ser Gregor and Ser Amory would do, in general terms.

He likes to present himself as someone who is only as cruel as he has to be, but em we know how vindictive he really is.

[Lee-Sensei]

"When soldiers lack discipline, the fault lies with their commander." - Tywin Lannister

I don't know if he gave the specific order, but I do think he wanted it to happen.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Lee-Sensei

[Willam Stark]

Probably did.

[Equilibrium]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:39 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

I think he just gave a general order for the Mountain, and the Mountain filled in the blanks.

Also, what are you doing in my palace? 

Hahahaha squatting, no one's around LOL

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think he ordered her rape. I think Tywin pretends to be like this calm, collected man, but in reality...he is the Mountain. The reason so many things happen under his watch..is because he wants this to happen. I think he is full of shit, basically. I don't trust a word he says. I think even before the discovery of Shae in his bed, I thought he was kind of full of shit, but the discovery of Shae in his bed was enough to basically sell it to me. Tywin is full of shit. He ordered Elia's murder and rape, because he is a petty, petty man, and a misogynist. I wouldn't even doubt that he ordered the Red Wedding or took part in it's planning. 

Also, in case anyone is wondering, I hate Tywin with a passion that burns in my soul. I have my own father issues, which probably weigh into it, but my father is more like...a Stark (probably a mix of Brandon and Eddard) than a Lannister...anyways, I think Tywin is one of the more evil characters, even up there with the likes of Euron or Ramsay, and people buy the load of dung he serves up to the everyone about only doing things for "logical" reasons. Nah. He is a petty, insecure, controlling, and above all, arrogant man, who does horrible things because he is a horrible person. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I think he ordered her rape. I think Tywin pretends to be like this calm, collected man, but in reality...he is the Mountain.

I disagree. In many ways Tywin is worse than the Mountain, if for no other reason than just the level and breadth of terror he can inflict upon others by sending men like the Mountain and Lorch to do his dirty work for him. At the same time, unlike Cersei who is stupid, Tywin is smart. When he sends the Mountain and Lorch he knows exactly what they will do, he doesn’t have to order anything. 

[Dofs]

I've always thought that the motivation for Tywin to give an order as a revenge for being chosen as Rhaegar's wife instead of Cersei to be flimsy, since by the time of the Sack Tywin should had been happy that he dodged a massive bullet of being tied to Targaryens through marriage.

[sifth]

"When soldiers lack discipline, the fault is in their commanding officer" Tywins own words. So he's either a hypocrite or full of shit. I much prefer the latter, but the former is nice as well. Either way Tywin sucks and is probably the worst human in the series.

Edited September 29, 2023 by sifth

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

14 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. In many ways Tywin is worse than the Mountain, if for no other reason than just the level and breadth of terror he can inflict upon others by sending men like the Mountain and Lorch to do his dirty work for him. At the same time, unlike Cersei who is stupid, Tywin is smart. When he sends the Mountain and Lorch he knows exactly what they will do, he doesn’t have to order anything. 

We don't disagree. Cause I agree with this.