Israel - Hamas War IV

[Spockydog]

nvm. What's the fucking point.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Spockydog

[Ran]

Just now, Spockydog said:

I just sprayed coffee all over my monitor.

Avoid using soap in cleaning it, their screens can be damaged by it. Clean water and a clean microfiber cloth.

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

…Tbc you’re arguing for a self-perpetuating problem. The more Settlers expand, the more they terrorize, the more instances where “we can’t pull back the settlers now, they’ll hate us” there will be. Where does it rationally end in your view? With a complete gobble up of Palestine along with a enforced Aparteid?

But the opposite happened. Israel abandoned territory and the result was more missile attacks than ever before and it allowed Hamas to build up enough forces for the attack that started the current flare-up of hostilities. In the other hand the West Bank is easy to control in comparison. 

What would Israel gain by acting against its own citizens in the West Bank? Less ability to contain and strike its enemies and more internal strife in my opinion but not much else.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

some 500,000 are adult men. Of those, 4-50,000 are Hamas militants. That leaves the other 450,000.

And all those adult men are trained soldiers and experts in how to run a government post revolution?

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

History is filled with revolution and rebellion, even in wartime

Yeah and a lot of times those revolutions fail or have more negative consequences than the previous status quo.

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

now, we're talking about a people that have for 60 years or so fought a generally-losing war against a numerically and technologically and economically superior power allied with most of the world's greatest powers while they have largely been ignored and unsupported, and they struggle on.

But you dare suggest that they consider turning that will to resist against the unelected jihadist death cult that has unleashed this particular hell on them, and my goodness, people are in a tizzy.

I guess the numerically and technologically superior power bombing them will take and they’ve been inoculated to hate and fear takes more precedent.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

But the opposite happened.

The opposite here would be the more they expanded the less they terrorized the Palestinians, the less likely they are to say because of the forced acquisition they can never move back.

Where does Israeli expansion rationally end for you? Because it has to end somewhere, and the tactic of you’re advocating to me looks to either be something that will end with Apartheid or ethnic cleansing. Something we both don’t want.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Heartofice]

We are talking a lot about resisting Hamas.. but who is to say Palestinians generally don't support Hamas?

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

We are talking a lot about resisting Hamas.. but who is to say Palestinians generally don't support Hamas?

As with all things, the story is complicated. A lot of Gazans were unhappy with Hamas prior to this, but not a clear majority. How they feel now, I can't say. There's always the claim of the "rally around the flag"  effect during war, but I would think the effect of that would be softer given that it's an unelected jihadist group that's gotten you into this mess in the first place. But again, I don't know.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Bironic]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

We are talking a lot about resisting Hamas.. but who is to say Palestinians generally don't support Hamas?

For me that is the sad truth about the Palestinians: they support parties that make it impossible to support them, even if one (like me) is generally supportive of their cause. If they once in the over 100 years of conflict elected leaders like Nelson Mandela, Albert Luthuli, Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King etc. 

Israel and Palestine would look very different today…

[Relic]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Well, yes, because if you believe Gaza suffers under a blockade now, just imagine the lengths Israel will go to never let them have access to Israel again if it allowed Hamas to stay in power.

 

"Imagine if it was even worse for Palestinians" is a strawman argument. It can't get much worse.

Has there been any in-depth analysis on how Hamas managed to breech border security so overwhelming on the day of the attack? Cuz Gaza basically has a boot on it's neck, and yet Hamas managed not only to infiltrate and barbarically murder, but also to take hostages back with them. In my mind this leaves a lot of room for improvement of border security that doesn't necessitate a tighter blockade. Just smarter security measures.

 Proceeding to your next statement (sorry I don't know how to reply to multiple things in one post on my phone), why do we always resort to this weird "well the innocent civilians deserve what they are getting cuz they didn't kick the bad guy out" way of thinking? We said the same about Afghanistan and Iraq and it's fucking horseshit. You can puff your chest out and make grand claims of how you'd react to oppression were you ever personally oppressed, but those words mean dick. If a path to liberation and a better life was a reality for most Palestinians they'd be on it. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Bironic said:

For me that is the sad truth about the Palestinians: they support parties that make it impossible to support them, even if one (like me) is generally supportive of their cause. If they once in the over 100 years of conflict elected leaders like Nelson Mandela, Albert Luthuli, Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther King etc. 

Israel and Palestine would look very different today…

Isn’t that true of virtually everyone, as in every country/nation? 

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Relic said:

"well the innocent civilians deserve what they are getting

They absolutely don't. Never said it, never thought it. 

 I suggested maybe you'd find it more acceptable if the Gazans got rid of them themselves, but still innocent people were going to die, and that seems a greater concern to you. And yet innocent people will continue to die if Hamas stays in charge, guaranteed. The rest has been my talking to people who seem to imagine that resistance to Hamas is simply impossible to consider, and how strange that seems when considering history at large and in particular to the history of Palestine, but that's neither here nor there.

Again, Hamas has launched attacks against Israel in pretty much every year of their existence, even when they were largely left to their own devices in Gaza after Israel pulled out entirely. Hamas has to go. What follows, I don't know, but maybe it'll be better because it can't get worse (if what you say is correct).

@Crixus

Feel free, please, to stop trying to suggest people are secretly believing Islamophobic nonsense just because it's a strawman that you feel comfortable fighting against. We'll have civil debate, and if you find yourself incapable of it, take a break.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ran

[Relic]

18 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

We are talking a lot about resisting Hamas.. but who is to say Palestinians generally don't support Hamas?

Hey, why don't you do the research yourself and let us know instead of asking thinly veiled questions?

[Crixus]

5 minutes ago, Relic said:

 Proceeding to your next statement (sorry I don't know how to reply to multiple things in one post on my phone), why do we always resort to this weird "well the innocent civilians deserve what they are getting cuz they didn't kick the bad guy out" way of thinking? We said the same about Afghanistan and Iraq and it's fucking horseshit. You can puff your chest out and make grand claims of how you'd react to oppression were you ever personally oppressed, but those words mean dick. If a path to liberation and a better life was a reality for most Palestinians they'd be on it. 

I'm not in my home country and neither are any of my siblings - my mum lives alone at 70+ and is fierce and principled. She started talking openly about the current regime, posting online, going to rallies, and I was fucking terrified. I fought, begged and did everything else I could to make her stop because I knew other women of her age who'd been carted off to jail - many are still there. I guess I should've applauded and told her to 'rise up' instead, yeah?

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Relic said:

Hey, why don't you do the research yourself and let us know instead of asking thinly veiled questions?

I'll say it again, in case people missed it last time.

Hamas was elected in 2006 with 42.9% of the vote, so less than half.

Hamas refused to hold an election when their mandate expired in 2014.

Half of the people in Gaza right now are under 18, so could not have voted in the election.

Even if we round that vote result up to 50%, at best maybe ~25% 'supported' Hamas and that was back in 2006.

[Crixus]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

 

@Crixus

Feel free, please, to stop trying to suggest people are secretly believing Islamophobic nonsense just because it's a strawman that you feel comfortable fighting against. We'll have civil debate, and if you find yourself incapable of it, take a break.

Is it just a strawman, though? Can you with complete confidence say there is no tinge of it at all in any posts here? Just curious. But sure, I'll stop trying to suggest it.

[Ran]

Just now, Crixus said:

Can you with complete confidence say there is no tinge of it at all in any posts here?

I have for the most part seen neither antisemitism nor islamophobia in these threads, with one or two exceptions, which have been dealt with by mods. I don't think asking about attitudes of Palestinians towards Hamas is some sort of veiled Islamophobia. It seems important in understanding any conflict to understand what all parties believe and want and what choices they make in relation to those desires and needs.

[Relic]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

They absolutely don't. Never said it, never thought it. 

 I suggested maybe you'd find it more acceptable if the Gazans got rid of them themselves, but still innocent people were going to die, and that seems a greater concern to you. And yet innocent people will continue to die if Hamas stays in charge, guaranteed. The rest has been my talking to people who seem to imagine that resistance to Hamas is simply impossible to consider, and how strange that seems when considering history at large and in particular to the history of Palestine, but that's neither here nor there.

Again, Hamas has launched attacks against Israel in pretty much every year of their existence, even when they were largely left to their own devices in Gaza after Israel pulled out entirely. Hamas has to go. What follows, I don't know, but maybe it'll be better because it can't get worse (if what you say is correct).

@Crixus

Feel free, please, to stop trying to suggest people are secretly believing Islamophobic nonsense just because it's a strawman that you feel comfortable fighting against. We'll have civil debate, and if you find yourself incapable of it, take a break.

Well Ran, can you tell me how you would dispose of Hamas were you living in Gaza? I'm no expert but I imagine most weapons are owned by Hamas, and most paramilitary training is undertaken by Hamas. Are civilians supposed to fight AKs with rocks?

As for your second point, we'll just have to disagree or we're going to repeat the same arguments over and over. Hamas has to go, but innocent human live need to be preserved. Full stop.

Finally, will you please extend your final statement to those accusing others of antisemitism?

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Relic

[karaddin]

I just don't see how any military response even if it, in an extraordinary twist of unlikely events, actually manages to achieve it's objective of completely wiping out the current Hamas can be seen as actually ending the violence when it's accompanied by catastrophic "collateral" damage and cutting off food and water to over 2 million civilians - guaranteeing the future birth of a "son of Hamas".

That's not ending the problem, it's committing terrible actions to kick the can down the road.

ETA: Id missed that there were 2 more pages of posts, this was meant right after Crixus a couple of pages back.

Edited October 19, 2023 by karaddin

[Bironic]

15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t that true of virtually everyone, as in every country/nation? 

Not really… (unless you mean that you have to elect someone like Mandela every single time, than yes it’s true, but that’s not what I meant) 

I would have been much more sympathetic for the apartheid regime in South Africa if the guys opposing it would be people whose dedicated goal was to kill every single white South African… or if the goal of the Dalai Lama would be to kill the Chinese etc. or if Selenskyj would chose as method of resistance the bombing of the Moscow metro etc…

there are just certain leaders and their respective people that make it easy to support their cause and others were it’s basically impossible 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Bironic

[Crixus]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I have for the most part seen neither antisemitism nor islamophobia in these threads, with one or two exceptions, which have been dealt with by mods. I don't think asking about attitudes of Palestinians towards Hamas is some sort of veiled Islamophobia. It seems important in understanding any conflict to understand what all parties believe and want and what choices they make in relation to those desires and needs.

I agree with your premise, but I do think that some of the posts are subtly implying that Palestinians naturally would/probably do support Hamas because they are who they are (ethnicity, religion) - despite many posts in here and previous threads talking about pop demographics, the date of the last elections and other facts. Some posts also seem to have different standards for this case vs. other similar situations with people of different ethnic backgrounds.

Saying something outright isn't the same as implying it, of course, and I may have confirmation bias because of some posters' history, admittedly. You're the mod, so I'll defer to you here. Thanks.