US Politics: Dominoes falling, GOP failing, what a time to be alive!

[Bironic]

35 minutes ago, Zorral said:

In that case why then do you not chastise those who say that the killers "are suffering with mental illness issues?"  Because that is said everytime about everyone (unless, the occasional Black person, sometimes) who has committed mass murder -- while they all ascribe to the Haters' List of Issues.

I did that a couple of pages back in this thread:

On 10/26/2023 at 6:12 PM, Bironic said:

Can't obviously negate your assessment, but I would prefer if the media would be more reluctant regarding the whole mental health issue debate in such cases in general(not only in cases of white men vs muslims). First it creates the idea in peoples minds that mental health issues lead to violence or are dangerous, which in almost all cases they are not and even if they are people with mental health issues are far more likely to be a danger for themselves rather than for others. Thus it doesn't help people that are already struggling explaining their respective issues to the general public. Second mental health was often used in history to discredit certain ideologies "he's crazy" so let's not take his viewpoint or actions seriously and last but not least you can do perfectly evil, bad and illegal things without suffering from any mental health issue. I can't say that any of this is the case in the current tragedy but it might.

PS: Also I think you are an overall reasonable poster, so for me it makes more sense to criticise you (I think chastise is a bit strong), because I think you can take a point while it kinda makes less sense to engage in such a debate with someone who is largely immune to facts, has a made up opinion and might not even be on this board (like the heads of the various CNN, FOX, CBS, NBC, etc.)

Edited October 28, 2023 by Bironic

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Ironically, the only radicalization that leftist activists do is the unintentional kind, by making the right wing talking points seem just a little more reasonable

Ehhh, that’s a bit too hasty generalization,. I’ll admit some stunts are optically and even morally bad and can make people more sympathetic towards the opposition.

Though some attempts are worthwhile and are necessary.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

and their groups comparatively more welcoming. 

Ehhhhh, depends on the situation.

They’re more willingly to trot out queer conservatives when wanting to trick liberals into bashing non-white immigrants and immediately bar those queer conservatives from having a table at the actual point constructing policy.

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Radical or not, you catch flies with honey, not with micro-policing every perceived transgression.

There’s no contradiction in wanting to radicalize someone to your favorable outlier position and thinking you’d catch more flies with honey.

 

I feel this response is due to you projecting your own grievance on who’d you define as a leftist radical and what that entails onto my lukewarm statement.

[Conflicting Thought]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

WTF?

An absolutely incomprehensible approach to politics that you actually want people to be radicalized.

radicalization is not always bad, you need to feel strongly about some things to be compelled to act and try to change things, im a radical when it comes to class strugles, when it comes to helping forward the fight for womens rights, for indigenous peoples, for poor people, for lgbtq + peoples, for climate change, against capitalism, etc...though radicalism can mean very different things to people, what do you understand to be radicalized? 

if you want for example to fight against an oppresive regime you have to be radicalized to a certain extent, yes? im sure hatian people in the hatian revolution where very radicalized, and i really cant blame them and in fact i fully support that kind of radicalization.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

12 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ehhh, that’s a bit too hasty generalization,. I’ll admit some stunts are optically and even morally bad and can make people more sympathetic towards the opposition.

Though some attempts are worthwhile and are necessary.

No need to talk in the abstract, you were just casting suspicion on Ana Kasparian because she was annoyed that her doctor switched the default lingo from woman to birthing person. It's perfectly fine for her to be annoyed by that, and it doesn't mean she doesn't support trans humanity or trans rights. She just doesn't want to upend every linguistic and cultural norm that the most obnoxious activists push.

Saying "woman" with an implied asterisk is a perfectly viable default option to take; we do this all the time with outlier cases. If someone says "humans are bipedal" we can understand that some people may in fact have one leg rather than two, and it doesn't make them any less human---nor does it make the general rule any less true. Obviously when the topic of conversation is on trans women, or any other exceptional case, the language can be honed to address that fact, the asterisk made explicit. But in most cases, it's obnoxious to favor the special case in speech over the general rule.

Even if you disagree with such a take, the fact that you are "disappointed" with Ana, and suspect her of being a right wing propaganda hack in waiting, speaks to the lack of "honey" that I was talking about. That reflexive suspicion is more likely to push someone into a reactive posture than lure them back to what you see as the correct position.

[Martell Spy]

Pence suspends presidential campaign
The former vice president announced his decision to audible gasps at a Jewish forum in Las Vegas.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/28/pence-suspends-presidential-campaign-00124097

Quote

 

LAS VEGAS — Former Vice President Mike Pence announced on Saturday that he was suspending his presidential campaign in a speech before the Republican Jewish Coalition conference.

“The Bible tells us that there’s a time for every purpose under heaven. Traveling across the country over the past six months, I came here to say it’s become clear to me that it’s not my time. So after much prayer and deliberation, I have decided to suspend my campaign for president effective today,” Pence said, to audible gasps from the audience gathered at the Venetian resort on the Las Vegas strip.

 

 

[Ormond]

17 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jorden Peterson was just a random lying and/or paranoid person before he went viral for lying about the ramifications of gender identity becoming  a protected class.

 

You may never have heard of Jordan Peterson before that particular moment, but he was a very well-known psychologist years before that happened. If I interpret his Wikipedia page correctly, he made that statement in 2016. There was already an entire mini-series about him on Canadian TV in 2004, based on a bestselling book published in 1999. So he was far from "just a random person" when he made that statement. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Ormond
correct typo

[maarsen]

2 minutes ago, Ormond said:

You may never have heard of Jordan Peterson before that particular moment, but he was a very well-known psychologist years before that happened. If I interpret his Wikipedia page correctly, he made that statement in 2016. There was already an entire mini-series about him on Canadian TV in 2004, based on a bestselling book published in 1999. So he was far from "just a random person" when he made that statement. 

Well I guess it had to happen that someone brings up his Canadianness. Oh, the shame, the shame of it all.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 minute ago, Ormond said:

You may never have heard of Jordan Peterson before that particular moment, but he was a very well-known psychologist years before that happened. If I interpret his Wikipedia page correctly, he made that statement in 2016. There was already an entire mini-series about him on Canadian TV in 2004, based on a bestselling book published in 1999. So he was far from "just a random person" when he made that statement. 

He wasnt mainstream though was he?  we didnt have books by him in chile untill a few years ago. He became really famous after he started to talk about men cleaning their rooms and culture wars shit. And was plataformed in every podcast, like the joe rogan one

[Ormond]

Just now, maarsen said:

Well I guess it had to happen that someone brings up his Canadianness. Oh, the shame, the shame of it all.

Sorry! I have no bad feelings toward Canada because of Peterson even though I find many of his statements reprehensible. Guess there is no such thing as a nation with a 100% perfect population, not even proverbially "nice" Canada.

[Ormond]

4 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

He wasnt mainstream though was he?  we didnt have books by him in chile untill a few years ago. He became really famous after he started to talk about men cleaning their rooms and culture wars shit. And was plataformed in every podcast, like the joe rogan one

Gosh, how are you defining "mainstream"? He was certainly "mainstream" in terms of being well known among psychologists and many social commentators in the United States and Canada by that point. Maybe he's only become known outside of English speaking countries that last few years, but if you have to be well-known outside of your own country to not be a "random person", I think that is way too high a bar. I would not call someone who I found out was known by almost everyone in Chile a "random person" even if I had never heard of him or her before I was informed about their Chilean fame. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Ormond
correct a mistyping

[Martell Spy]

8 minutes ago, maarsen said:

Well I guess it had to happen that someone brings up his Canadianness. Oh, the shame, the shame of it all.

Just going to tuck this away until the next time some moronic right-wing President invades some random country.

[DireWolfSpirit]

The inability of the GOP to even produce a modicum of interest in any campaigner not named Trump is mind blowing at this point.

I suppose the DeSantis and N.Hailey are sticking in it for the VP slot. Its painfully obvious this party is incapable of producing anyone that can beat out Trump for the nomination.

The narrow minded groupthink this displays is chilling and yet perfectly in line with what it represents to be a Republican now.

Edited October 29, 2023 by DireWolfSpirit

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Martell Spy said:

Pence suspends presidential campaign
The former vice president announced his decision to audible gasps at a Jewish forum in Las Vegas.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/28/pence-suspends-presidential-campaign-00124097

 

Short version. Pence admits he fell for a prank call, when he claimed God called upon him to run.

I mean, we all knew like 3 years ago, that a Pence for President campaign would be going nowhere. If he won that primary, that would've been an actual miracle on par with Jesus turning water to wine. Or in this case water to vinegar. If Pence had won the nomination, then I'd be way more open to the existence of god. Not a benevolent one, obviously, but I'd give their mere existence better odds than I do now.

Edited October 28, 2023 by A Horse Named Stranger

[A Horse Named Stranger]

19 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I suppose the DeSantis and N.Hailey are sticking in it for the VP slot. Its painfully obvious this party is incapable of producing anyone that beat out Trump for the nomination.

Why would individual one pick a shitty rip off version like DeNonsense. Nope, he stays in the race, because he believes, that the criminal convictions will bury Trump and that he then stands to inherit the nomination as runner-up. That is DeNonsense endgame, nothing else.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, Ormond said:

Gosh, how are you defining "mainstream"? He was certainly "mainstream" in terms of being well known among psychologists and many social commentators in the United States and Canada by that point. Maybe he's only become known outside of English speaking countries that last few years, but if you have to be well-known outside of your own country to not be a "random person", I think that is way too high a bar. I would not call someone who I found out was known by almost everyone in Chile a "random person" even if I had never heard of him or her before I was informed about their Chilean fame. 

I guess he wasnt a "random person" but he really wasnt the public figure he would later become

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, maarsen said:

Well I guess it had to happen that someone brings up his Canadianness. Oh, the shame, the shame of it all.

Most political activists that come from Canada that I immediately think almost always tend to be far right. Gavin Mcnis, Stephen crowder, Lauren Southern, Peterson. Why can’t they send us the good Canadians?/jk lol.

2 hours ago, Ormond said:

You may never have heard of Jordan Peterson before that particular moment, but he was a very well-known psychologist years before that happened. If I interpret his Wikipedia page correctly, he made that statement in 2016. There was already an entire mini-series about him on Canadian TV in 2004, based on a bestselling book published in 1999. So he was far from "just a random person" when he made that statement. 

That’s fair to bring up. though In my defense my use of random was in comparison to a political commentator well known in more progressive and activist circles.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

No need to talk in the abstract, you were just casting suspicion on Ana Kasparian because she was annoyed that her doctor switched the default lingo from woman to birthing person

Tbf I also provided a specific example of radical republicans who went beyond the moderate abolitionist positio which was to free the slaves gradually and eventually relocate them somewhere else(Lincoln’s position while campaigning), and pushed for empantipation and give freed slaves full citizenship.

Like can we as modern men say those people were good to push an agenda that was for their time radical?

I think we can.

Anyway Kasparian  compared this admittedly awkward sounding term—birthing person—to the n word. 

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

She just doesn't want to upend every linguistic and cultural norm that the most obnoxious activists push.

It’s fine that she doesn’t like the term being applied specifically to her in a personal setting.

the problem is her treating it as an attack on all women and exaggerating the commonness of its use and insinuating there is no context where it’s supposed to be used as a referent even going as far as attacking AOC for supposedly using it and progressive organizations like the ACLU.

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Saying "woman" with an implied asterisk is a perfectly viable default option to take; we do this all the time with outlier cases. If someone says "humans are bipedal" we can understand that some people may in fact have one leg rather than two, and it doesn't make them any less human---nor does it make the general rule any less true.

I don’t believe saying “able-bodied” is comparable to saying the n word.

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Obviously when the topic of conversation is on trans women,

To be clear in these sorts of conversations the inclusive language is more for trans mascs and men who are a lot harder to frame as threats to women and girls.

Trans women don’t mind getting called women generally and won’t ever be the particular people when people use pregnant person, person who menstruates, or even birthing bodies.

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

Even if you disagree with such a take, the fact that you are "disappointed" with Ana, and suspect her of being a right wing propaganda hack

 I don’t suspect her being a right wing propaganda hack.

yet at least though it’s not the first time Tyt turned out such a thing(see Dave Rubin whose fallen out of favor for deciding to have children). 

 a leftist or someone on the left can have a reactionary bent in a specific area and have their advocacy aid in a reactionary movement  and not be in my eyes personally  on the right or even disgenuine. 
 

6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

lack of "honey" that I was talking about

Forgive me but I genuinely see me giving as much honey without being willfully dishonest.

Because looking at the first post it’s pretty tame I think. I neither accuse her of being an clear-cut outright transphobe, nor even a grifter, just expressed why I believe grievance with the inclusive language is faulty, and how she’s choosing to communicate her grievance is harmful because what she represents to people.

Should I not even words such terms such as disappointment? 
If you’re more outraged at the packaging of arguments than my substance how do you think I can communicate the substantnce of my complaints against her—that she’s over-exaggerating the harm of inclusive terminology such as birthing person on right wing platforms?

Edited October 29, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[LongRider]

5 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Pence suspends presidential campaign
The former vice president announced his decision to audible gasps at a Jewish forum in Las Vegas.

Seen on Mastadon:   

"In fairness, we should be forcing Mike Pence to carry his campaign to term."

Mrs. Betty Bowers

[LongRider]

Apparently, our new speaker has a podcast:  

Truth be Told with Mike & Kelly Johnson on Apple Podcasts

I'll pass but here's a link anyway.   

[Varysblackfyre321]

Just now, LongRider said:

Apparently, our new speaker has a podcast:  

Truth be Told with Mike & Kelly Johnson on Apple Podcasts

I'll pass but here's a link anyway.   

Everyone has a goddamn podcast these days. 
I’d love to listen to a trump podcast.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321