Marvel's Multiverse of Maddening Returns

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Seems clear to me that Black Panther, Carol and Strange were supposed to be the new lead trio but obviously Boseman dying stopped that and then the other two haven't landed the way they needed, even though Captain Marvel did do well.

This was never going to be a winning lineup, mainly because there is no inherent natural tension between these characters or even a relationship. It also doesn't help that none of them had the charm and charisma of a RDJ. Even if they tried to make Steven Strange a knock off magic Tony Stark, but it never really worked. 

Captain Marvel did do well, but blah blah, crowbarred between Avengers movies blah blah, it doesn't seem like her character is much loved. 

[Rhom]

I had seen mentions of it recently, but had not seen anything that really explained it until today:

Marvel Spotlight:  MCU New Banner Explained

Quote

According to Marvel Studios, Marvel Spotlight is a new banner or sub-category for upcoming MCU projects released by Marvel Studios that will not necessarily tie into and reference larger plot threads of the MCU.

What this basically means is that fans or new MCU viewers will not need to have seen any prior MCU movies or television shows to prepare for any upcoming releases that fall under the Marvel Spotlight banner. For instance, viewers will not need to have seen Hawkeye to understand Echo, which will premiere in January 2024 and will be the first MCU project to fall under the Marvel Spotlight banner.

That sounds promising.  Both for casual fans and for those of us that are more connected.

[sifth]

So I heard about 67% of people, who saw the Marvels were men. This film just gets stranger and stranger, the more you learn about it's numbers.

[Rhom]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

So I heard about 67% of people, who saw the Marvels were men. This film just gets stranger and stranger, the more you learn about it's numbers.

That's the men who are so invested in the MCU that they have FOMO and don't want to miss anything, no matter how bad it is. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

That's the men who are so invested in the MCU that they have FOMO and don't want to miss anything, no matter how bad it is. 

And that’s the problem. The MCU didn’t become the MCU because it appealed to comic book fans. It appealed to the general audience. But that’s a double edged sword. 

The real genius of the MCU was they created a context where people stopped watching these movies like stand alone films and started watching them like episodes of prestige cable TV. How they fit into the broader story was just as important as the experience of the thing itself. Stronger films would drag along weaker films and franchise momentum kept the general audience engaged.

More and more, I think the MCU (and CBM’s in general) are losing the general audience. I don’t think they’re coming back. 

 

[williamjm]

22 hours ago, Werthead said:

Bringing in Deadpool, Fantastic Four, Doom and the X-Men and Brotherhood are all big, low-hanging fruit they can go all-in on, but I suspect they were aiming to be careful in the writing and casting and do that whilst the Kang Saga unfolded. With that on the rocks, the temptation must be to say "it's mutant time," and hope like hell they nail those movies.

I don't expect them to do it, but it might be better if their inevitable X-Men reboot was explicitly not part of the MCU. Some of the recent MCU entries like Eternals or Moon Knight were already not gaining anything in terms of story from being part of the MCU and we seem to be passing the point where being part of the MCU is an automatic boost to the box office. It would avoid having to explain away why the mutants weren't involved in any of the previous events in the MCU. The obvious downside from Marvel's perspective would be that they can't include the mutants in Avengers films.

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

The real genius of the MCU was they created a context where people stopped watching these movies like stand alone films and started watching them like episodes of prestige cable TV. How they fit into the broader story was just as important as the experience of the thing itself. Stronger films would drag along weaker films and franchise momentum kept the general audience engaged.

More and more, I think the MCU (and CBM’s in general) are losing the general audience. I don’t think they’re coming back. 

The Monsterverse has taken a very similar approach, with each film being both a standalone but having loose ties to other movies, and with the side-story Monarch: Legacy of Monsters having just launched a few weeks ago. But each Monsterverse movie does I suppose play like an episode of prestige cable TV, and was given enough time to have each movie/episode feel sufficiently different and unique to avoid a feeling of sameness. 

At least in theory. I've never seen any of them as kaiju stuff never spoke to my tastes, but I appreciate the effort that's been put into creating unique cinematic experiences that tried to be tonally different, from Godzilla, to Kong: Skull Island, to King of the Monsters, etc. 

[Arakasi]

But monsterverse is like a movie every what 18 months to two years. That’s fine because that’s the market for those films. If they made 3 movies a year they’d kill their goose. Marvel is both pumping out crazy quantity but not quality and that’s pretty bad. I probably kept up with everything for like 18 months post endgame but I think what deadlines says is spot on. There were plenty of average films during the glory days of the MCU but they were propped up by the must sees. Now we just have the average films and that’s not enough. Like I really liked the last Spider-Man but only so much you can go on nostalgia. 

[IlyaP]

1 minute ago, Arakasi said:

But monsterverse is like a movie every what 18 months to two years. That’s fine because that’s the market for those films. If they made 3 movies a year they’d kill their goose.

Bingo. I think this works in their favor. Each movie in the series is marketed as an event film, but one that stands on its own, rather than being necessary viewing as part of a larger series, and each instalment is spaced out enough to let people have a breather. If they oversaturated, like you said, they'd kill their goose. 

At least, that's the impression I'm getting from having read up on it this morning. 

Also, looking at IMDB, it seems like the Monsterverse movies try to hire good actors that are interesting to watch, to (I guess?) balance out the insane VFX that dominates the viewer's screen. Looks like the movies thus far have included Lance Reddick, Kyle Chandler, Tom Hiddleston, Bradley Whitford (JOSH LYMAN!), Samuel Jackson, Jean Reno, Bryan Cranston, Ken Watanbe, David Strathairn, and even Juliette Binoche?! Stacked cast there. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 hours ago, Arakasi said:

But monsterverse is like a movie every what 18 months to two years. That’s fine because that’s the market for those films. If they made 3 movies a year they’d kill their goose. Marvel is both pumping out crazy quantity but not quality and that’s pretty bad. I probably kept up with everything for like 18 months post endgame but I think what deadlines says is spot on. There were plenty of average films during the glory days of the MCU but they were propped up by the must sees. Now we just have the average films and that’s not enough. Like I really liked the last Spider-Man but only so much you can go on nostalgia. 

And there's the rub. A lot of the discussion I'm seeing about this is, "They need to do this or that to get back on track, blah, blah." But I don't think that's enough to regain the glory days of Phase 3. If franchise momentum can propel films to success, the lack of it can kill them, regardless of their quality.

Case in point, The Marvels domestic box office after 10 days has only just eclipsed Captain Marvel's first Friday night. Captain Marvel was a meh film with a ton of anticipation. The Marvels is arguably a better film (though I haven't seen it) with no anticipation at all.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[mormont]

Momentum is certainly an issue. There are two problems: one, as I said, there hasn't been an Avengers film in a while and there's been no sense of building momentum towards one. In theory there's the Kang stuff but it has been spread too thin and is too vague and inchoate. There's no feeling that the Kang in Quantumania and the Kang in Loki connect, and there has been no Kang at all in most of the releases.

But the second momentum problem is, well... everyone talks about the Celestial in the Indian Ocean, but remember how Eternals introduced the Black Knight? When will we see that character again? Will we see that character again? I don't know. The Marvels came out this month and left a dangling plot thread. When will I find out what happened with that? Not before 2025, probably. There are a lot of characters and plotlines now, is my point, and that contributes to a loss of any feeling of momentum. If you have a favourite, you're going to have to wait for a bit to follow their story. 

I'm unconvinced that casual film-goers really avoid these films because they feel like they 'have to' have seen other films of TV to understand them. But I do believe that they struggle to feel any sense of momentum or connection between the films and that means the motivation to go isn't as strong. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by mormont

[Heartofice]

I think it also relates to confidence. The audience needs confidence that there is a plan and if they are investing their time in a franchise there will be some pay off at the end.

There have been too many broken promises in the form of end credit scenes that never lead to anything and stories that hint at something and never deliver. 
 

Maybe not as bad as the Sonyverse or the DCEU, but why get excited about something that might never happen or may we totally shit when it does appear.

[IlyaP]

49 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Maybe not as bad as the Sonyverse or the DCEU, but why get excited about something that might never happen or may we totally shit when it does appear.

Can we *please* make the Sonyverse an official thing? I can't handle the SPUMC or whatever the hell it is they're calling it. At least I can *remember* Sonyverse! @Heartofice - you're a goddamn genius!

[Caligula_K3]

Beyond the problems or successes of the MCU, there's also this: the moment is passing. Comic book movies (and nerd culture in general) just aren't as cool as they were five years ago. That doesn't mean that all comic book movies from now on are going to do badly. There are still plenty of comic book movie fans out there, or people who will be willing to see one if it gets good reviews. But I seriously doubt that the MCU, even if it starts producing banger after banger, is ever going to be a cultural juggernaut again (at least not until a nostalgia driven boom becomes possible in 15-20 years).

There's also just fatigue. It's been over twenty years since the current comic book movie craze began with X Men and Spiderman. At this point, it's very, very difficult to make a movie that feels new or exciting - the Spiderverse movies and Wandavision are the only real exceptions I can think of recently. For example, I know The Batman got good reviews and great reception, but to me it was a lesser remix of Batman Begins/The Dark Knight. Even the more enjoyable MCU movies I've seen recently have been enjoyable partially because of nostalgia (Spiderman: Far From Home and Guardians 3). No matter what Feige or Gunn try - and they are both very talented people, so I wish them well - it's going to be tough to get over that wall of fatigue.

[Rhom]

22 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

There's also just fatigue. It's been over twenty years since the current comic book movie craze began with X Men and Spiderman.

This hit me really hard just now.  I’ve been struggling lately with how fast time is moving for me.  So this blows my mind now that I see it in print (or pixels, whatevs.)

Xmen was 2000.
Ironman was 2008.

And in my head that feels like it was a huge time gap.  But it has now already been four years since Endgame and that feels like an eye blink ago.

[SpaceChampion]

4 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Can we *please* make the Sonyverse an official thing? I can't handle the SPUMC or whatever the hell it is they're calling it. At least I can *remember* Sonyverse! @Heartofice - you're a goddamn genius!

They changed it to SSU a while back, the Sony Spiderman Universe.

Tom Holland's Spiderman is not part of the SSU currently, but reports are that he will be.  Claims from a supposed insider are that Spiderman 4 will be another Multiverse movie, and the SSU will merge with MCU with Disney's full cooperation and take-over of creative control.  I wouldn't bother with mentioning this but it all seems 100% like what Sony and Disney would do.  Sounds like that Sinister Six movie Sony's always wanted.

https://www.comingsoon.net/guides/news/1409803-spider-man-4-mcu-ssu-combine-canon-connect-venom-madame-web

Only question is if this is the same incursion that Strange and Clea were going to attempt to deal with, and whether that will all take place in Spidey 4 or Doctor Strange 3.

[Kalbear]

Was thinking about this more too - that stories, well, end. Endgame was a very good ending for the overall set of shows, with three major character deaths/retirements and the biggest bad being defeated. It's okay to end stories! It's okay to move on or do something different. 

But it's kind of weird to just...keep going after an ending that big. 

[Maithanet]

I would also just point out that the success that the MCU had from Avengers (2012) to Endgame (2019) was basically unprecedented, and certainly unsustainable.  It's amazing they were able to keep it going as long as they did.  Mediocre films like Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 made almost 2 billion dollars in 2013!  C list properties like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man became household names and spawned their own franchises.   

That kind of success simply cannot last forever.  Endgame was a good stopping point for a lot of people who were getting tired of superhero stories generally, and many favorite characters were put to bed.  It should come as no surprise that attempts to "recapture the magic" of 2012-2019 have been dramatically less successful, because the bar was impossibly high. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Maithanet

[Rhom]

53 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

But it's kind of weird to just...keep going after an ending that big. 

Sometimes I try to keep going after a big finish too and its never been anything to brag about... 

 

[Kalbear]

38 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Sometimes I try to keep going after a big finish too and its never been anything to brag about... 

 

That's a bummer for you then, it's pretty awesome