Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Larry of the Lawn]

15 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

I’d say most of what’s in this post is false. The Russians don’t give a shit about Ukrainian lives. They’ve wiped out entire towns. 

I do have to agree that, from what I’ve seen in the news, far more infrastructure damage has been done in Gaza. It looks like a wasteland.

And none of my arguments are made in bad faith. Why would I have bad faith on the topic of dead children? Do you deny the median age of the Ukrainian population is 44 and the Gaza population is 19? Is that bad faith to you????

Saying you'd take people's concerns about child deaths more seriously if they came from countries that actually valued children seems too be pretty poor faith engagement.  I can't think child deaths are bad until my country gets its shit together?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Larry of the Lawn

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

What feels like nonsense or even just a really poor argument is saying that there are actions that might justify kidnapping someone. 
 

If someone has done something they shouldn’t have done, something illegal, they should be detained and charged, not kidnapped and held indefinitely w/o being charged.

Legally when it comes to human rights there is usually no difference between prepubescent kids and teenagers but that is obviously not true when it comes to what people feel and most countries do have laws the punish teenagers harder than younger kids.

Emotionally people will usually feel way more sympathy towards a little girl then a teenage boy. That is nothing new and pretty widespread I feel.

Obviously nobody should be detained indefinitely without charges but that people feel that those two cases are not equivalent should not surprise anyone.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Conflicting Thought]

39 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Saying you'd take people's concerns about child deaths more seriously if they came from countries that actually valued children seems too be pretty poor faith engagement.  I can't think child deaths are bad until my country gets its shit together?

Its racist bullshit

[kissdbyfire]

That has nothing to do w/ the point I was making. The person I replied to said something along the lines of, “what could a 2-year-old have done”, in the context of said child having been kidnapped being totally unjustifiable. And that very obviously implies that there might be justification for an older individual to be kidnapped. 
And I disagree, I think there’s no justification for kidnapping anyone of any age. If a person has done something illegal, arrest them and charge them. 
Picking people up and throwing them in prison indefinitely w/o charges w/ the cherry on top that there is evidence to suggest these detainees are being subjected to abuses and torture is something nasty dictatorships do, not so-called democracies.
 

[Luzifer's right hand]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That has nothing to do w/ the point I was making. The person I replied to said something along the lines of, “what could a 2-year-old have done”, in the context of said child having been kidnapped being totally unjustifiable. And that very obviously implies that there might be justification for an older individual to be kidnapped. 
And I disagree, I think there’s no justification for kidnapping anyone of any age. If a person has done something illegal, arrest them and charge them. 
Picking people up and throwing them in prison indefinitely w/o charges w/ the cherry on top that there is evidence to suggest these detainees are being subjected to abuses and torture is something nasty dictatorships do, not so-called democracies.
 

That is pretty standard for so-called democracies sadly and I believe it is called enhanced interrogation. 

[Craving Peaches]

Reportedly Israeli is going to pump even more money into their illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Quote

The coffers include approximately $41m, which will be distributed as follows, according to a social media post by Itay Epshtain:

$25.4m for settlement construction

$10.6m to search for and destroy humanitarian aid projects in ‘Area C’ of the West Bank

$5.3m for West Bank military academies

Source: Al Jazeera

I really hope this isn't true or the decision is reversed or something. But I am sadly not surprised if it is real.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Reportedly Israeli is going to pump even more money into their illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Source: Al Jazeera

I really hope this isn't true or the decision is reversed or something. But I am sadly not surprised if it is real.

I'll ask again, why do you feel the need to spam these threads with shaky reporting from state media? It's not helpful. Wait a bit for sources that have more credibility. 

[Zorral]

As we who are citizens of the USA know all too well, the fascists always float their desires and plans first on what you call 'shaky' media.  As then we citizens of the USA know all too well, one must believe Their shyte, because They say what They mean and and want, and never stop pushing to get it, through the multiple ways They take and exercise power, whether legally, or not, whether according to what voters want and vote for, or not. So ya, it's not spam, it's reporting what They want and plan.

36 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

shaky reporting from state media

 

[Craving Peaches]

39 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

why do you feel the need to spam these threads with shaky reporting from state media?

Firstly, I would not say I have been 'spamming' Al Jazeera posts in these threads, at least not recently. On this particular thread I only have one post referring to Al Jazeera. In the previous thread (X) I had three, two from around November 19th, one from 15th of November. In the thread before (IX) that I had one post from the 11th of November referring to Al Jazeera, and one on the 9th. I don't see how that is 'spamming'. You can check my activity if you wish (my counting may be off). I have also referred to Reuters, the BBC, the Guardian, the AFP, the Times of Israel etc.

Secondly, Al Jazeera is reporting on what someone else said, not presenting it as a fact, so I don't see how it is 'shaky reporting'.

Thirdly, I do not think the fact that it is Qatari government funded makes a difference to this particular report. As I said before: Would I trust them to report on workers rights in Qatar? No. But this is just them reporting on the contents of a Tweet. A link to the tweet is available for you to see yourself if you want. I didn't post it because people in prior threads seemed to not want tweets being posted.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Heartofice]

Why even open yourself up to this criticism though? Would someone post a link from RT in the Ukraine thread? Of course they wouldn’t, even if they could explain why the content was technically correct. It’s the same with Al Jazeera posts here.

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Why even open yourself up to this criticism though? Would someone post a link from RT in the Ukraine thread? Of course they wouldn’t, even if they could explain why the content was technically correct. It’s the same with Al Jazeera posts here.

I can directly post the tweet if you want. But people seemed to not like that when I did it before because it was contributing to Elon's revenue or something. So I thought it would be best to post the Al Jazeera report instead. This seems to have backfired though as people are irate at posting Al Jazeera content.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Heartofice]

22 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I can directly post the tweet if you want. But people seemed to not like that when I did it before because it was contributing to Elon's revenue or something. So I thought it would be best to post the Al Jazeera report instead. This seems to have backfired though as people are irate at posting Al Jazeera content.

Well depends who tweeted it as to whether it is trustworthy?

[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well depends who tweeted it as to whether it is trustworthy?

Biography (humanitarianpolicy.org)

Itay Epshtain - Legal Advisor (Aid Obstruction and Shrinking Civic Space) - Association of International Development Agencies (AIDA) | LinkedIn

Itay Epshtain is the person purported to be tweeting. A special advisor to the Norwegian Refugee Council.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Biography (humanitarianpolicy.org)

Itay Epshtain - Legal Advisor (Aid Obstruction and Shrinking Civic Space) - Association of International Development Agencies (AIDA) | LinkedIn

Itay Epshtain is the person purported to be tweeting. A special advisor to the Norwegian Refugee Council.

And how does he have access to this information he’s tweeting about? 

[Craving Peaches]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

And how does he have access to this information he’s tweeting about? 

Because his job is to look into these sorts of things?

It is a budget ('special budget allocation) from May which is going ahead tomorrow, according to the Tweet.

[kissdbyfire]

I’m all for checking who and what we link here, and I have been especially careful since I posted a tweet that was obvious misinformation. 
That said, if the person posting is fairly satisfied w/ the content they’re posting, I don’t think they have to be subjected to an interrogation about their post. Anyone w/ any doubts about what has been posted is free to go look it up themselves. 

[Fragile Bird]

3 hours ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Saying you'd take people's concerns about child deaths more seriously if they came from countries that actually valued children seems too be pretty poor faith engagement.  I can't think child deaths are bad until my country gets its shit together?

I’ve gotten sick and tired of the bullshit being slung in these threads. “Think of the dead children” but no Israeli children died, right? If you don’t believe me go back and re-read threads one and two where doubts were expressed about children killed by Hamas.

The truth is we all live in countries where children are considered unimportant until they come of age, whatever that age is, and thus constant reference to how many children died is sooooo bloody cynical. And running an AlJazeera article that ignores the differences in the two countries is just icing on the cake. My position is that all the deaths are important. Reading about entire families being wiped out, 19 people, 35 people, 50 people, who all lived together in the same buildings is deeply tragic. I don’t need to know how many were children to get my sympathy.

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

doubts were expressed about children killed by Hamas.

No, the doubts were whether or not the reports that we were seeing everywhere, that babies were deliberately beheaded. Which still has not been confirmed.  You are exercising memory selectively.

There's a great deal of concern, however, about the Israeli women who seem to have been deliberately raped by either Hamas, and/or the opportunist thugs who came with them. This has not been doubted.

[mormont]

I'd have two points to make that I think everyone should bear in mind:

- first, as I've said before, please try not to make negative inferences from others' posts. Instead try to give them the benefit of the doubt. Not because they personally necessarily deserve it, but because it helps to avoid unnecessary arguments. React to, and argue with, the bare content of the post, insofar as possible, instead of attacking an inference that might be incorrect and in any case can't be tackled directly. There's no down side to doing things this way, I assure you.

- second, if you find yourself sick and tired of this thread at any time, there's also no down side to taking a break from reading it. Good for your mental health, good for calming the discussion down. I do it. I encourage others to do it too.

[TrueMetis]

10 hours ago, JoannaL said:

Thats nonsense, sorry  I do not understand what you want to say. What did 2 year old girls do? Isreal did not detain any young children. Only the Hamas terrorist did. Obviously there is a difference.

What did the the people who are held under indefinite detention without any charges or conviction do?

The guy who I talked about was *13* when he was arrested and convicted despite being acknowledged not to have done the thing he was convicted of. Despite being *under the age of criminal culpability in Israel* (not even getting into the weeds of Israels authority to arrest given the crime did not happen in Israel at all)  Israel does not detain any young children my ass.

I'm very much reminded of people refusing to call Tamir Rice a child.

ETA: And this doesn't even get into the point as you instead try to quibble over severity instead of what was actually said. Which is that unlawful detainment is unlawful detainment. Regardless of who it's done to. But I'm not convinced you don't actually understand that, just that you recognize you can't actually argue against it and so want to shift the conversation elsewhere. Which, no. I've made my point about the kind of people the IDF detain, and I'm not interested in sitting there and getting into the weeds of which of two inhumane criminal acts is the worst as though that will do anything.

Some of the people are getting released, some finally get to go home after being treated terribly, and that's great. But if you really do want to talk about the differences between the two? Here's a thought for you, only some of the hostages being released will get to go home and be without the constant spectre that the people who kidnapped them will be able to imprison them again whenever the hell they want.

ETA2: Realizing the way I phrased it is ambiguous, what I meant here was that many of them will still live in places the IDF controls, obviously everyone who was held hostage on both sides went through a traumatic event and even after being released the fear of it happening again will be with them.

Edited November 26, 2023 by TrueMetis