[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[EggBlue]

change of the topic and getting back to our least favorite knight , ser Criston Cole . in one of his interviews Fabien Frankel does mention that Criston becomes a completely different character after the major time jump . so , obviously they are going with the perfect knight who's soiled with his own revenge seeking obsession.

however , jokes aside , it'll be a good idea to pull a reverse show Jaimie arc on him! meaning after the obvious arc he slowly gets remorse for his actions especially after seeing the atrocities his favorite student , Aemond, inflicts on people . the reason I think it could be a good idea goes back to Cole's end in F&B . as the only non-nobility character , it's somewhat sad to see him as the only one who dies like a commoner despite his station. and while he completely deserves being denied a heroic death , I find the whole situation a bit unfair due to his heritage. and I think it'll add some layers to it if he doesn't fully deserve that death. 

[Ran]

Frankel plays the turn very well, IMO.

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The Hightowers are generally regarded with about the same level of disdain as the Freys and with good reason. It's a scummy family of contemptible social climbing trash that I am happy to see exterminated as a line. Sadly, it's a shame they continue onward. There's no reason not to do them as POC versus white but the idea they're not some of the worst people in ASOI&F is a hard sell for me. I look forward to seeing them destroyed in the show. You could write them differently but you could also say Walder Frey had a point.

By who? The readers? Not at all. People love the Hightowers, forum members have a passionate conversation in the General tab about them. Interesting and one of the most ancient background, 90% would say they have a bigger role to play in the books than what it would seem at first.

The characters from ASOIAF? Again, not at all. They are to this day one of the most outstanding lords in Westeros after all the Lords Paramount. They are kin to basically everybody (altough that's kinda the rule in the Reach, it seems), and they always seem to have a lsrge extended family, that's all the similarities with the Freys. They even had Rhaena Targaryen marry into their family, which shows that they quickly emerged from the aftermath of the Dance. 

That Alicent Hightowers was villainous, his father is Littlefinger but highborn, and that Aegon and Aemond were total scumbags doesn't change much. In fact, it doesn't change anything about their status, the fact that they were such a huge part of the Dance only elevates them even more, and the Hightowers of the present didn't inherit anything bad from their past.

I would go as far as saying that they are the closest in rank and status to the Lords Paramount, along with the Tarlys and Velaryons of the past (since their luck began to shrink after Oakenfist, and drastically evaporated during Robert's Rebellion).

[Lord of Oldstones]

So very true Daeron. Lots of fans adore House Hightower along the Daynes. They have cool tall castle with ever burning fire. They rule large & wide area with 5 big lordly vassals.They are hinted to be more autonomos than other vassal.They are centre of knowledge and current lord is hinted to dabble in necromancy, they have cool Valyrian sword. They are always well connected. Their heir was suitable husband for Dornish princess (if not for that fart ). Lady paramount is Higtower. No one dislikes them in asoiaf world instead want to part of that rich and super prestigeous family.Their lineage and prestige on question of Alicent-Viserys match was made very clear in Fire and Blood.

Book fans are always intrigued by House Hightower its power might & super old lineage. 

This civil war is Targaryen vs Targaryen. Hightower element isnt relevant. Alicent's children were raised  and behaved as Targaryen as was Aemma Arryn daughter Rhaenyra who is not an Arryn girl.

But not sure about Tarlys they got overrated in GOT. They produce good general but strength?  Rowan, maybe Oakheart also and certainly Redwyne outrank them in importance in Reach.

Overall we further we also have Royces with so many vassal and Manderlys then Bolton Freys in next tier before them.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Lightoftheast

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Change of the topic and getting back to our least favorite knight, ser Criston Cole. In one of his interviews Fabien Frankel does mention that Criston becomes a completely different character after the major time jump . So, obviously they are going with the perfect knight who's soiled with his own revenge seeking obsession.

That's what worries me the most about the structure of this show. The big time skips can give characters personality swaps instead of gradually changing them. Haven't some of the reviews pointed that out as well?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[EggBlue]

42 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's what worries me the most about the structure of this show. The big time skips can give characters personality swaps instead of gradually changing them. Haven't some of the reviews pointed that out as well?

there's certainly concern about that issue . however , they can pull something like that off considering that we'll continue with the main characters such as Rhaenyra , Alicent and Cole . I guess we can only wait and see ... my main concern for the show , is how they'll deal with second generation cast, since with the structure they have for season 1 , half of the first generation characters will die after some scenes for merely 2 episodes and are basically just there to have children! in GoT for example , Arya , Sansa , Robb and Joffrey were hardly center stage in season 1 but they were all properly fleshed out in later seasons . if this show can do the same for twins , Strong Velaryons , Aegons and Aemond one-eye , then it can be a pretty good show . otherwise , it's got the potential to be a  show that you never get attached to anyone , especially that the main cast who will be there for start to finish are not exactly going to stay likable for long. not to mention , A LOT of new characters keep coming in , Daeron and Dragon seeds the most obvious ones .... they have to deal with Peake , Hightowers , Lannisters , Stark , Jeyne Arryn , Blackwoods ..... thinking of it , I do not envy the showrunners at all 

[Crixus]

On 8/31/2022 at 6:17 PM, karaddin said:

Haven't caught up to the thread past here, but I wanted to chime in and say I absolutely parsed Rhaenyra as having a teen crush on Alicent, but didn't think there was any indication it was reciprocated. I don't think its jealousy however, rather the betrayal of doing this with the one friend she had without even giving her a heads up first - that seems entirely reasonable as something to drive a wedge there.

And Viserys absolutely was cowardly but in a way that's very real and relatable, I don't damn him for it but it was a mistake.

Hey karaddin! Been a while, hope you're all good

Interesting re Rhaenyra having a crush on Alicent, I didn't get that vibe but you could be right. Totally agree about the betrayal by Viserys, especially since the previous dinner scene gave him plenty of opportunity to tell her. Absolutely relatable, and in keeping with his tendency not to rock the boat and keep everything chilled out. Alicent also looked very guilty in the scene, she obviously knew how Rhaenyra, who has no idea her friend's been hanging with her dad, would take this. It's clear how genuinely close they are and how much they care for one another, especially in the scene where they talk about their dead mums. So far, I'm really enjoying this! 

[butterweedstrover]

Criston Cole has barely said anything so far so I don't get how is being portrayed as a knight in shining armor. He is just there. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

38 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Criston Cole has barely said anything so far so I don't get how he is being portrayed as a knight in shining armor. He is just there. 

He's literally a knight in shining armor, though.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He's literally a knight in shining armor, though.

His armor is kind of rusty.

[The Bard of Banefort]

This feels like kind of an insecure move, to be honest. Ratings aside, I don’t think the show has been as big in the US as they thought it would be, which is still their largest market. It also really undercuts all the talk from HBO about how they aren’t worried about TROP.

https://www.ign.com/articles/house-of-the-dragon-episode-1-youtube-release-the-rings-of-power-premiere

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

This feels like kind of an insecure move, to be honest. Ratings aside, I don’t think the show has been as big in the US as they thought it would be, which is still their largest market. It also really undercuts all the talk from HBO about how they aren’t worried about TROP.

https://www.ign.com/articles/house-of-the-dragon-episode-1-youtube-release-the-rings-of-power-premiere

I was watching a video that said the Nielsen rating for HotD was significantly below the final season of GOT and we only have HBO as a source for the 10 million number but who knows. 

[SeanF]

21 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Seriously, Ser Cole helped in treason and murder purely because he was pissy at his ex-girlfriend not wanting to move to California with him in a van.

Criston is notable for the fact that, of all the Greens, he is by FAR the pettiest.

Yes, Cole has no redeeming features that I can see.

[DMC]

The conversation about the Hightowers wasn't about how the family is viewed overall.  If we're talking about that, yes, of course, they are one of the most esteemed non-great houses (hell I'd put them above at least a couple great houses).  The context was about the specific Hightowers during the Dance/the show's time period, and how that would be reflected by making them the "black family."  And between Otto, Aemond, and Aegon II, I don't think that'd be a good idea.  Whereas Corlys is badass, Laenor is very sympathetic, and thus far Laena is all kinds of adorable.

[The Bard of Banefort]

12 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I was watching a video that said the Nielsen rating for HotD was significantly below the final season of GOT and we only have HBO as a source for the 10 million number but who knows. 

Ooh interesting. Do you have a link?

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I was watching a video that said the Nielsen rating for HotD was significantly below the final season of GOT 

That's technically true but also doesn't matter.  Per the Hollywood Reporter:

Quote

HBO doesn’t break down its cumulative audience figure by platform, but final Nielsen ratings for Sunday show the on-air audience at 2.26 million viewers. That’s up a little from the series debut, which averaged 2.17 million viewers for its first airing. Both episodes drew got about 22 percent of their viewing from that first on-air showing; the rest came from streaming and replays on the HBO cable channel.

Those numbers are certainly far lower than the final season of GoT, but since the on-air audience only accounts for ~ 22% of the actual measured ratings, nobody cares.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. The Hightowers are generally regarded with about the same level of disdain as the Freys and with good reason. It's a scummy family of contemptible social climbing trash that I am happy to see exterminated as a line. Sadly, it's a shame they continue onward. There's no reason not to do them as POC versus white but the idea they're not some of the worst people in ASOI&F is a hard sell for me. I look forward to seeing them destroyed in the show. You could write them differently but you could also say Walder Frey had a point.

Well, for a show audience the Hightowers were completely unknown prior to this show, so how non-book readers view them is up to the writers of the show. But, of course, historically the Hightowers are not exactly social climbers. Alicent is one of the few maidens from Westerosi nobility whose bloodline is so ancient and noble that a match with King Viserys I doesn't cause opposition (as Maegor's earlier marriage to Ceryse Hightower confirms). And the Dance aside, the Hightowers always stayed aloof of petty feuds and wars.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. Really, the argument regarding the Strongs is the Strongs aren't that important to the show. Harwin and his dad get killed fairly on the dance and sadly their children are wiped out pretty early as well. They also have no real importannce to the overall politics and twists and turns of the Dance behind the scenes.

You seem to be forgetting both Larys Strong and Alys Rivers. Luke dies early, Jace sticks around for some time and Joffrey lives almost as long as Rhaenyra herself.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Don't think you're responding to me here, but just in case to clarify, no, it has nothing to do with the Strongs not being "good enough."  That's not the point at all with them.  It has to do with, presumably, Rhaenyra's first three looking like Strongs and the "slander" that ensues.  If that's based on skin color, that's a very uncomfortable change, which should be obvious.

The crucial slander is that Laenor is unable to father a son who looks like him. I doubt they go with the kind of racist slur we get in the book as the boys looking 'common' because they have non-Valyrian hair (and eyes).

This could be illustrated via the boys having a different skin tone than Laenor. Which I guess they will do in the show since there the boys will be lighter-skinned than they should be as sons of Laenor.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

As for the Hightowers, well, no, not all of them.  But in my reading of the text Otto is certainly one of the primary "villains," or at least one of the least likeable characters that is most responsible for the war other than Viserys himself.  And Otto is clearly going to be the main Hightower at least in the first season.  So, those would be my main initial concerns.  And thus far they've been borne out by..Otto being one of the least likeable characters and primarily responsible for fomenting the civil war in the first two episodes.  Who woulda thought?

Otto certainly is a kind of villain, but he is pretty complex and at least appears to be competent and courageous. And, as I said, he basically as the same goals as black Corlys, does he not? I think while we might continue to root for Rhaenyra who is not only our main character who grows into her own and takes charge ... we certainly should also understand Alicent's and Otto's desire to see the male Hightower-Targaryens not be turned into unwanted spares.

I mean, I certainly think that it is Viserys' right to keep his chosen heir ... but at the same time you cannot say that Aegon and Alicent deserve to be put in the background in this manner. If Viserys wanted Aemma's Baelon to be his heir, why not Alicent's Aegon?

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Further, Aemond is perhaps the only abject villain in the story (at least in terms of main cast), and Aegon II has pretty much no redeeming qualities.  So, yeah, those three are why I'd be reticent making them the black family.  

From what we heard about show Aemond

Spoiler

he is going to be a complex character with sympathetic aspects.

A way to deal with that if you see it as an issue could be to have Aegon II as a pretty much white guy since one could easily have cast Otto as a darker-skinned actor, Alicent as a lighter-skinned woman and Aegon II as white passing ... while, perhaps, Daeron would appear more mixed.

I mean, I must say from an anti-racist perspective it strikes me as pretty powerful to have a black prince to be Joffrey-like evil king - that isn't the standard role black actors are playing in American televsion, is it? The big point about this diversity thing is to get away from tokenism and type-casting, where minorities are mainly cast to play supporting roles.

A black Corlys actually fits pretty well into that old framework, since he clearly is just a supporting character, his children will die soon, and while the roles of his granddaughters might be expanded they aren't main characters, either.

Alicent Hightower, on the other hand, is clearly a main character. Otto, too, and Aegon II and Aemond are likely to evolve into the main characters of later seasons.

Thinking a little bit more about Corlys ... while I certainly enjoys Steve's acting, I think the show missed the opportunity to give the Corlys role to an older actor. A crucial part about the character of Corlys Velaryon is that he would be already about sixty when the show begins in the early 110s and then around eighty during the Dance. A man who has already lived a full and long life. This isn't the vibe you get from his portrayal in the show - where he apparently personally fights on the Stepstones.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

24 minutes ago, DMC said:

Those numbers are certainly far lower than the final season of GoT, but since the on-air audience only accounts for ~ 22% of the actual measured ratings, nobody cares.

Didn't THR report that the first two episodes of HotD were on par with season 6 of GoT in terms of ratings?

[butterweedstrover]

57 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ooh interesting. Do you have a link?

DMC made a response post with more info but the video I got that from was a YouTuber called Nerdeotic in his review:  

at 00:30 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FtVN7dkwz_A

 

46 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's technically true but also doesn't matter.  Per the Hollywood Reporter:

Those numbers are certainly far lower than the final season of GoT, but since the on-air audience only accounts for ~ 22% of the actual measured ratings, nobody cares.

I mean, I don’t really get how Nielsen works but wouldn’t the ranking for GOT season 8 also only include the on-air audience (therefore being even higher overall). 
 

What I mean is if the rating for HotD is say 2.2 million and the rating for GOT was 11.9 million wouldn’t their proportional difference be the same because the GOT number is also not accounting for off-air audience? 
 

Or am I missing something?

[cock_merchant]

With the Advent of streaming, why view only nielsen/cable ratings alone? Seems some really want this to fail for peculiar reasons. 

 

The general public loves this and are back on the GoT train for better or worse. 

 

ETA: @Nerdrotic is part of the rabid anti SJW lot that hates on all modern media adaptions for its diversity and inclusivity regardless of the quality of the content. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by cock_merchant