Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[SeanF]

@butterweedstroverSelf defence, emphasising Ukraine’s separateness from Russia, are not “genocide” or “ethnic cleansing.”

Russia’s treatment of Ukraine over the past century comes much closer to being genocidal than do arguments over language rights.

[JGP]

 

The taffy is getting stretched pretty thin, Butter.

 

So, the heart of your arguments herein over the last while pare down to:

International partners aiding in the defense of Ukraine need to stop, because

• Russia needed to continue its 2014 aggression
• otherwise Russia, as Mother Matryoshka, would've eventually been destroyed anyway
• but it doesn't really matter if Ukraine is destroyed, considering Ukraine is little Matryoshka

 

I mean, help me out here, but it kind of sounds like by continuing to help Ukraine survive this onslaught we'd also be... aiding in the preservation of Russian culture?

Edited July 16, 2023 by JGP

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Historically, Biologically, and Culturally, Ukraine and Russia are both Rus. They are the same people. 

Yes, we get you think Russia has a blood right to dominate Ukraine.

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian imperial interests in keeping Ukraine from being controlled by western backed nationalist is rational and sound. 

By subjugation of it though conquest and this level of coercion is not sound and rational. 
 

 

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Much of your gun-ho pro-war attitude comes from the idea that Russia is acting based on an irrational desire to rule,

It is largely. It’s not anymore morally complex than Hitler’s take over the Sudetenland.

3 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

and unending military conquest

Which land has Ukraine taken from Russia that don’t follow under their internationally recognized borders?

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It is when all Ukrainians who follow the Moscow orthodoxy, speak Russian, promote Russian culture, politically support closer ties with Russia, etc. are given a choice to have a change of opinion. 

That’s not what ethnic cleansing means bud. At best it’s assimilation.

Which in this particular case can be argued as good and practical to some extent.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Or else be cleansed

No.

 

Whose been exiled or killed specifically for speaking Russian?

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

What do you think is going to happen when Ukrainian nationalists (the government) occupy Crimea or Donetsk city? They are all going to bask in liberal democracy and have a debate of opinion?

They’ll probably act as the allies did after liberating Germany.

Well the better allies. Not the soviets lol.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

All the ones that matter. Once you arrest them who is going to be in charge of this new transition government? Nalvany?

So you think the West has serious plans to arrest Putin?

You do understand if such a thing was tried it’d be ww3 and likely the end of the world? 
 

The way you frame your opposition despite your howls for nuance when defending your side is absurd.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, it's going to be a western backed transition government like in Kiev circa 2014. 

Still waiting for the evidence the US formented a coup in 2014 Ukraine.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

That's not the stipulation. They call all Russian soldiers orcs and make fun of them when they die no matter who. 

I’m more generous. 
 

 

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

And that is just the first step in genocidal rhetoric which Banderites are promoting in the west. Then they start making fun of Russian citizens who get eaten by sharks on vacation, they normalizing the banning of Russian culture, sports teams, etc. 

I’m not a fan of the first half. Second part is fine enough to an extent where the cultural and sports endeavors are state sponsored.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Even one of my favorite youtube channels delisted a video just for complementing the Moscow metro system (!!) 

 

Unfortunate if true.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, Persian culture (I have normal Persian-Azerbaijani blood) is endlessly celebrated in the west, same with Cuba and Cuban dissidents.  

Jesus Christ more hyper fixating on bloodlines.

I don’t know what you mean by celebrated?

Cuba has been frozen out by the US economically largely due to a lot of those Cuban dissidents hating the communist regime.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Russian liberals (anti-Putin) aren't celebrated, nor is their culture, because genocidal goals have reshaped the dialogue. 

Again clarification.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, listen to what the Bandera supporters say

No listen to the context of how different people use the same turn of phrase or information.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Democracy' in this case is just a term for a western dominated liberal democracy, which means a country with no military or financial (or diplomatic) independence. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Fortunately not—again please stop projecting Russia’s ambitions for Ukraine onto the West.

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Because they haven't lost yet. But if they do, then Bucha will only be the tip of the iceberg. 

Wait what?

Are you saying Russia will punish all the people who’ve committed massacres of the Ukrainian populace once they lost?

Or are you saying more massacres will happen once Russia loses?

[horangi]

7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It cannot just leave. The west is clear it wants to remove the government in Moscow, destroy the black sea fleet, and turn Russia into an impotent backwater dominated by competing interests. 

If it backs out know, it is over. That arrest warrant for Putin was crafted alongside the US state department, and the Banderites in Kiev want the economic power of the slavic world to shift from Moscow to Kiev, these are there plans and they don't hide them either.

If the above is the cost of Russian forces leaving Ukraine, I'm all for it.  I'd suspect the Tuvans and Chechans would be OK with this scenario.  As a professed Banderite, I do think Antonio would be a better leader of the Moscow successor state, purely based on his performances as Puss in Boots.

Out of curiosity, what's your hangup over the Black Sea Fleet?  You do realize that after the recent promotion of the Moskva to submarine, the fleet is made up of 5 frigates, a handful of diesel-electric Kilos, and various smaller ships which are best used to terrorize Ukrainian grain ships? In a war with NATO, the fleet would be converted into several reefs in a matter of hours and whatever was left would have the Bosporus, the Med, and Gibraltar before even getting to the open ocean.  I do realize that "seeking a warm-water port" is the answer to just about every question regarding Russia at trivia night at the local pub, but I'd think that ship has sailed by now. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by horangi

[kiko]

14 minutes ago, horangi said:

I do realize that "seeking a warm-water port" is the answer to just about every question regarding Russia at trivia night at the local pub, but I'd think that ship has sailed by now.

I would say that since Putin's actions turned the Baltic sea into a Nato pond, Muscovites now even have a hot water port.

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, horangi said:

Puss in Boots.

Oh come on that’s not fair—puss in boots is actually pretty awesome and brave, and actually good at his profession.

[Lord of Oop North]

Why even talk to this looney tune?

He literally said Russian HAD to invade, otherwise it will lead to the collapse of Russia. Come on.

Meanwhile, because of this war, the fuckwit in charge of Russia has probably brought Russia closer to collapse than it has ever been since 1991.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Lord of Oop North

[butterweedstrover]

9 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

You are the one equaling Russia withdrawing from an invasion it started to a surrender.

That's silly.

 

The war can end as soon as Russian soldiers leave Ukraine.

You want the invasion to continue? YOU want Russian soldiers to die.

Quack quack.

What was it that you said my little bipedal friend? Russia is "invading" Ukraine as we speak. Not Russia "invaded" Ukraine. 

It's awkward phrasing though I don't know if english is your first language. Assuming it is though you have a lot of reason to reframe troops in the defensive position as 'invading'. 

D-day was called the "allied invasion" of Europe. Invasion, a force broaching the grounds where some other power is entrenched. 

There is no span of time allotted for when an occupying force gains control. They gain control the moment... they have control. All else is an attempt to dislodge them, hence invasion. 

Your support of the current offensive comes out of a desire for military victory, not peace. Everyone supports peace once they have achieved total victory, and you're not willing to compromise on your goals. 

So yes, a retreat will lead to the necessary political environment for negotiations. Negotiations of surrender.  

However, first you have to accept what the military aims of the Kiev-NATO alliance is. Not a return to the status quo, but the complete destruction of the Russian state. Those are the parameters set for achieving peace talks: 

1. Complete military domination of Sevastopol and Donetsk city  

2. Prosecution of state actors 

3. Demilitarization of the black sea fleet 

 

Now I've explained why these things will lead to the collapse of the Russian state, and much worse. But you have to decide to engage beyond the level a troll would, elsewise we get nowhere. 

Your position as far as Russian soldiers is that: if they don't get out of your way you kill them. So be clear, your opposition to a ceasefire comes out because you want them to die, actually you need them to die. Which is why dehumanizing them as 'orcs' is easier than dealing with the consequences of your actions. 

Again, take that up with your priest, I can't help. 

9 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hahahahahahahaha.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wait , I'm sorry,   but, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Calling Russia the victim for invading a foreign country and then sucking ass at it? You're a peach. 

Removing context once against Tywin, because we can't keep a coherent conversation going for long. 

If you pursue aims that guarantee the collapse of Russia, then blame Russia from bringing about their own collapse... you are shifting blame away to yourself and onto the victim. 

I am sure Putin specifically (a creation of the west) holds partial blame. But that doesn't change the active decisions you (or your leaders) are making right now to bring this about. 

And if someone opposes such outcomes, they're a fascist or a troll. Because you like everyone else rooting for a side in war since the beginning of man are victim, a victim of propaganda. And it would be victim blaming to judge you for falling down a path many others already have. 

[Lord of Oop North]

Just now, butterweedstrover said:

What was it that you said my little bipedal friend? Russia is "invading" Ukraine as we speak. Not Russia "invaded" Ukraine. 

It's awkward phrasing though I don't know if english is your first language. Assuming it is though you have a lot of reason to reframe troops in the defensive position as 'invading'. 

D-day was called the "allied invasion" of Europe. Invasion, a force broaching the grounds where some other power is entrenched. 

Are you okay? Or is that newspeak? 

They are in the "defensive" position now, because their fucking invasion has faltered and the country they are trying to conquer is fighting back.

We don't need you to quote Merriam fucking Webster, your whole post is bollocks.

[Derfel Cadarn]

More Russian senior officers allegedly killed

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Increasing cracks in the Russian military?

 

[butterweedstrover]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

@butterweedstroverSelf defence, emphasising Ukraine’s separateness from Russia, are not “genocide” or “ethnic cleansing.”

Russia’s treatment of Ukraine over the past century comes much closer to being genocidal than do arguments over language rights.

8 hours ago, JGP said:

 

The taffy is getting stretched pretty thin, Butter.

 

So, the heart of your arguments herein over the last while pare down to:

International partners aiding in the defense of Ukraine need to stop, because

• Russia needed to continue its 2014 aggression
• otherwise Russia, as Mother Matryoshka, would've eventually been destroyed anyway
• but it doesn't really matter if Ukraine is destroyed, considering Ukraine is little Matryoshka

 

I mean, help me out here, but it kind of sounds like by continuing to help Ukraine survive this onslaught we'd also be... aiding in the preservation of Russian culture?

 

Making up historical lies to "emphasis differences" does not end at its utilitarian point of view. We have to look at the content of this historical revisionism. 

In the case of Ukraine, they borrow verbatim from genocidal sources. Not to create a separate identity for themselves, but to denigrate and rewrite the history of Moscow. 

They frame 'Russia' as fake Slavs, genetically inferior to the real "Kievan Rus" and then advocate the removal of its cultural and religious influences. The problem is, ethnicity in the Russian world is determined by political and cultural alligence. 

 A Ukrainian who speaks Russian, follows the Moscow Patriarch, and promotes Russian culture is classified as "ethnically' Russia. And Kiev's goal in removing this distinction is to cleanse its society of that unwanted demographic. 

Yet they also want to conquer territory where even more of these "populations" reside, because the aim isn't to protect Ukrainian statehood anymore, but to destroy Russian statehood as to return the role of "Kievan Rus" from Moscow back to Kiev. 

Saying Ukraine is only defending itself ignores the fact that its own government sees it's survival as the end of a unified Russian state. That is their goal, and now forces in Moscow are fighting for their own survival as well. 

As for aiding Russian culture, a Ukraine without Russia will, regardless of its nationalistic elements, be absorbed into the 'liberal' west as the goal of any empire is to homogenize the cultures within its boundaries.   

[butterweedstrover]

28 minutes ago, Lord of Oop North said:

Why even talk to this looney tune?

He literally said Russian HAD to invade, otherwise it will lead to the collapse of Russia. Come on.

Meanwhile, because of this war, the fuckwit in charge of Russia has probably brought Russia closer to collapse than it has ever been since 1991.

No, I was against the initial invasion. 

I said now that western military tactics have changed, Russia has to fight on or witness its disintegration. Which is the aim of the Kiev-NATO alliance. 

I would love for cooler heads to prevail in the west and for their to be a push for a negotiated settlement, not just the total collapse of the Russian military and prosecution of the Russian state. 

But alas, these cooler heads are yet to be found. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

45 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Removing context once against Tywin, because we can't keep a coherent conversation going for long. 

You can't have coherent conversations with someone who says all kinds of crazy nonsense. Everyone in this thread is laughing at you. Take the hint.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Tywin et al.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

 

14 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

As for aiding Russian culture, a Ukraine without Russia will, regardless of its nationalistic elements, be absorbed into the 'liberal' west as the goal of any empire is to homogenize the cultures within its boundaries.   

What exactly does absorption into the “liberal West” mean and how are the countries homogenised? 

I mean, last time I checked France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Turkey and so on were pretty different from each other. You don’t have to give up your language, culture or traditions just because you join a military alliance.

I have so many questions about this liberal empire. Being Swedish, I guess I’m part of it. Do I belong to one of the suppressed peoples of the empire or the ruling class? Where is this empire being ruled from anyway? 

[Derfel Cadarn]

The Wagner rebellion not quite dead? A statement from an actual Russian nazi (check his tattoos)

 

[Werthead]

Russian Telegram channels and Belarusian analysts (oddly) claiming that Ukraine has taken Staromaiorsky, which is the next village on the Velyka Novosilka-Mariupol axis. This is where Ukraine achieved the first successes of the counter-offensive but then seemed to switch focus to Bakhmut and the Tokmak direction. Now the emphasis is back here in the middle again. Ukraine encountered very heavy minefields here so it might be that mine-clearers have done their jobs, allowing a resumption of the advance.

Next major target on this advance would be Staromlynivka. Still 85km from Mariupol though.

Interesting to see where the breach happens, if it's here or over on the Tokmak approach. Or both, which might give Ukraine the problem of having to decide which advance to support.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Werthead

[A Horse Named Stranger]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You can't have coherent conversations with someone who says all kinds of crazy nonsense. Everyone in this thread is laughing at you. Take the hint.

Yep.

This horse has seen enough. The foolery with this troll has reached the point, where I am making use of the ignore function.

Mormont said something about the non-effect of discussing with RFK Jr. the efficacy of vaccines. There's none, when you argue with a bad faith actor. Not interested in giving him any more space, time, or cognitive resources in any shape or form.

Bye butterweed. Good night my sweet pure bloody prince.

If you, scot, or varys want to proceed with the feeding procedure, by all means. Not gonna chide you for your hobbies. But I am out.

[butterweedstrover]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes, we get you think Russia has a blood right to dominate Ukraine. 

It doesn't give them the right, it just helps explain the social and political context between Ukraine and Russia.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

By subjugation of it though conquest and this level of coercion is not sound and rational.  

 

Tactics are debatable. But if you believe the goals are sensible, that opens the door to negotiations. However certain western elements have decided that they don't want to negotiate, in fact they want to remove Russia as an independent power with its own security interests separate to those of NATO.

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

It is largely. It’s not anymore morally complex than Hitler’s take over the Sudetenland. 

Hitler's plan was to rearm Germany. Putin's is to stop the demilitarization of Russia. 

Morally I can't say, politically they are very different. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Which land has Ukraine taken from Russia that don’t follow under their internationally recognized borders? 

The reason you use that term "internationally recognized borders" is to normalize the plan to remove Russian military and Russian people from lands they have lived for nearly a thousand years at this point. 

But again, these disclaimers are useless as if/when China invades Taiwan, you won't be hearing about "internationally recognized borders."

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That’s not what ethnic cleansing means bud. At best it’s assimilation. 

Ah, the politically correct term for ethnic cleansing. "Forced assimilation." 

How far you have fallen morally due to propaganda. The people that have laid a soul like yours astray should be punished. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Which in this particular case can be argued as good and practical to some extent. 

The forcible removal of people, arrest of religious leaders, execution of 'collaborators', and tying innocent people to lamp posts in the middle of winter are all tactics tried by Ukraine which you call "practical and good." 

These atrocities will grow to a massive scale once they have Crimea and Donetsk.  

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No. 

The problem comes when they refuse to adapt. A Russian speaker who supports Ukrainian nationalism can eventually change. One that does not follow the lie which is Ukrainian nationalism must be removed. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

They’ll probably act as the allies did after liberating Germany. 

Allied forces in the western half tried to preserve Germans, ethnic cleansing will be more reminiscent of what happened in the territory handed over to Poland. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Well the better allies. Not the soviets lol. 

On no, there won't be an airdrop of candy in Crimea or Donetsk, just brutal repression, religious prosecution, and removal of a significant portion of the population that doesn't agree with the Banderaites.  

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you think the West has serious plans to arrest Putin? 

They (the US) helped craft the warrant, this wasn't the ICC going out on a limb. They did it to help disintegrate the current regime in Moscow. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

You do understand if such a thing was tried it’d be ww3 and likely the end of the world? 
 

If he were arrested while visiting a foriegn country? Yes. If the regime collapses in Moscow then no, Putin just becomes some random person.  

And like I said, the military aims of the west aren't about achieving peace, but the total destruction of Russia. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The way you frame your opposition despite your howls for nuance when defending your side is absurd. 

I don't frame anything. I just listen to what they say and believe them. They back a peace proposal which necessitates the prosecution of Russian officials BEFORE talks can begin, and they endorse an arrest warrant of the head of state. They are looking to reorganizing the Russian government, not dealing with independent actors. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still waiting for the evidence the US formented a coup in 2014 Ukraine. 

They supported the 'revolution' financially, diplomatically, but more importantly: 

western NGOs helped craft a transition government, which is their only option once the Putin regime collapses and they decide to 'take charge'. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m more generous. 
 

Well, you're not the one making decisions. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’m not a fan of the first half. Second part is fine enough to an extent where the cultural and sports endeavors are state sponsored. 

And yet athletes, composures, and even drinks referencing Russia are banned. This sort of cultural erasure is not done with the intent of creating a new stable regime, but ending the idea of Russia as a state all together.  

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Unfortunate if true. 

And yet it is just a microcosm of how the west is expected to treat the Russian identity. It's what happens when genocidal rhetoric originally isolated to the rantings of Bandera become mainstream.  

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jesus Christ more hyper fixating on bloodlines. 

Oh god, listen to what I'm saying. I know about how Iranian culture is celebrated in the west because of first hand experience.  

A major antigovernmental lobbying group in Washington holds Nowruz celebrations where major generals are invited, I've been there. 

Dissidents are uplifted and culture is glorified to make way for a 'new' Iran. 

Russia is different, liberal dissidents are rejected and its culture erased because the plan isn't for there to be a new Russia, but no Russia at all. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t know what you mean by celebrated? 

Championed, appreciated, celebrated. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Cuba has been frozen out by the US economically largely due to a lot of those Cuban dissidents hating the communist regime. 

That's their economy. The dissidents in Miami with deep cultural pride are promoted. No one sees them being tarnished for making Cuban Cigars are being proud of their culture. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Again clarification. 

Russian liberals aren't treated the same way. Because being against Putin isn't enough. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No listen to the context of how different people use the same turn of phrase or information. 

They use Bandera's language because they believe in it. They believe the true Slavic successor state is Ukraine, and their aim is to dismantle any notion of an independent Russian government. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Fortunately not—again please stop projecting Russia’s ambitions for Ukraine onto the West. 

It's the truth of ever western satellite state.  

You believe your empire is different from all others in history. You believe western imperialism is benevolent and seeks to provide freedom to all its subjects. 

You are not the first, every imperialist believes their project is different. It's not, but tactics change. Understand how international finance, military aid, and diplomatic pressure exist and look at western allied states. The goal has never been freedom, and to be honest that would be kind of stupid for them anyways. 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wait what? 

If Russia loses, those people involved will be prosecuted. 

 

6 hours ago, horangi said:

If the above is the cost of Russian forces leaving Ukraine, I'm all for it.  I'd suspect the Tuvans and Chechans would be OK with this scenario.  As a professed Banderite, I do think Antonio would be a better leader of the Moscow successor state, purely based on his performances as Puss in Boots. 

Good for you, at least you admit the goal is the destruction of Russia as a geopolitical unit. Can't blame them for fighting back though can you. 

Or do you prefer your prey to lay down and give up. 

6 hours ago, horangi said:

Out of curiosity, what's your hangup over the Black Sea Fleet?  You do realize that after the recent promotion of the Moskva to submarine, the fleet is made up of 5 frigates, a handful of diesel-electric Kilos, and various smaller ships which are best used to terrorize Ukrainian grain ships? In a war with NATO, the fleet would be converted into several reefs in a matter of hours and whatever was left would have the Bosporus, the Med, and Gibraltar before even getting to the open ocean.  I do realize that "seeking a warm-water port" is the answer to just about every question regarding Russia at trivia night at the local pub, but I'd think that ship has sailed by now. 

The black sea being dominated by an adversarial power puts all Russian military capacities into a chokehold. 

Without an ability to hold to project military power, Russia becomes a lame duck. And seeing as a unified Russian state can't exist as a western puppet, it will disintegrate. 

[butterweedstrover]

45 minutes ago, Erik of Hazelfield said:

 

What exactly does absorption into the “liberal West” mean and how are the countries homogenised? 

I mean, last time I checked France, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Poland, Turkey and so on were pretty different from each other. You don’t have to give up your language, culture or traditions just because you join a military alliance.

I have so many questions about this liberal empire. Being Swedish, I guess I’m part of it. Do I belong to one of the suppressed peoples of the empire or the ruling class? Where is this empire being ruled from anyway? 

Turkey is a little bit different because the nationalists fell behind what is support for political islam, an ideology that conflicts with western values. 

As for the rest, they all share the same values one way or another. On immigration, sexual identity, racial integration, gender roles, drugs, etc.  

They evolve at different times, but the trajectory is the same. 

With Poland you might think they are an exception, but they are part of the same role. The only difference is that unlike Sweden, Germany, the US, etc. that absorb migrants to help bolster their economy and demographics, they are (or have been) the country that provides the labor, hence such a demographic collapse. 

As long as Russia exists, Polish nationalists align with the liberal world order to destroy its enemy. Once its gone, Polish nationalism will become an obstacle to integration into the greater 'European' community.