Star Wars - PTTSD

[Jaxom 1974]

19 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I do not understand Skoll’s purpose… at all.

Oh nerdist wonders too...Oh Nerdist... your theories are always so click baity...

And based on what little we know, for what Baylon wants, he should be seeking out Luke Skywalker, not selling his laser sword to the highest bidder...

Edited September 27, 2023 by Jaxom 1974

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

You don't know she's secretly a follower of the Ewok religion?

Oh yeah, right? He's basically a deity now so, yeah.

[sifth]

41 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Now, a better question is why they didn't load these things up in the YEARS they had for prep time and...I don't know. Thrawn is a master tactician who is also absolute shit at logistics I guess. 

Because we needed a scene where Thrawn lost, yet still claimed it as a win. He basically did this all the time on Rebels and it made him look more stupid each time.

Honestly, Baylan is the only interesting character on this show for me and it's because unlike everyone else, he doesn't have plot armor. Thrawn either has to win or escape, so his plot line is predictable. Dave Filoni is too in love with Ahsoka, to kill her off or injure her in any permanent way, so her plot line is predictable. Basically Thrawin is going to either win or escape, but do so in a way, where he wont kill any of the main characters, I'm calling it now.

Baylan's plot however, it at least something new and original. Which makes it only more sadder that Ray Stevenson is no longer with us.

Edited September 27, 2023 by sifth

[fionwe1987]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Also, I've never watched Rebels so I've never encountered these characters, but surely it's obvious that Sabine is not being 'mysterious', she's avoiding Ezra's questions because she knows when he finds out what she did, he'll react very badly, and after their separation, she just wants to enjoy their reunion for a bit before that happens?

Oh she definitely is avoiding his questions. That's the part that's out of character, because "ignore your best bud's fate for the greater good" is the kind of instruction he's regularly violated in Rebels. I'd expect Sabine to feel hesitant but not to avoid the topic entirely. I'd expect Ezra to be  shocked, but hardly judgemental, once he's told the whole tale. 

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

Based on Thrawn's very first dialogue it seemed to me that he was only going to complete his end of the bargain once he knew he had a way to leave. Thrawn likely never had total faith in the Great Mothers until Morgan finally showed. In Rebels he clearly had trouble understanding the Force, which is why he could never anticipate what Ezra pulled off, so I can see him holding off on his part. And everything related to Ahsoka and Sabine was out of his control; this was supposed to be a secret operation.

Uh, okay. That would make sense if he had any other actual outcome possible to get him home, or that there was vaguely any danger at all about having that stuff on the ship. But I don't think that's the case. 

I also don't get why on earth it matters at all about Ezra, or any of that plot. Sabine's only value is to go lead them to Ezra...but if they're leaving him on the planet what does he matter? I guess Ezra might have been causing problems, maybe, but it doesn't look like his horde of ninja turtles are doing a whole lot. 

I know I shouldn't think about this much at all - but that's sort of the problem with having a character like Thrawn. If you're going to have someone known for their master tactics and intelligence their plans should be vaguely looking smart and it should look like he's planning ahead, instead of being surprised by the most basic things. 

[fionwe1987]

To be fair, Thrawn in Rebels was more competent than the average idiot leading the Empire's/Order's armies. 

But Rebels also had more room to expand, and to lay a deeper foundation to make him interesting. Not a lot of that is present here. The show seems to exist to get Thrawn back, and have Ezra, Sabine and Ahsoka meet again. That is awfully thin stuff for 8 episodes. 

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

Yeah this episode was like the type you can watch in the background while cleaning dishes 

[Luzifer's right hand]

I liked it that the space whales just noped out.

A pretty boring episode though.

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I also don't get why on earth it matters at all about Ezra, or any of that plot. Sabine's only value is to go lead them to Ezra...but if they're leaving him on the planet what does he matter? I guess Ezra might have been causing problems, maybe, but it doesn't look like his horde of ninja turtles are doing a whole lot. 

The impression I got was that Sabine missed Exra and she just wanted to get back together with him, even if it meant that she was going to be exiled in another galaxy with him.  I don't think she had any grand plans on how to get him back.  

So yea, it was a pretty selfish move on her part.

As for Ashoka and Hera, I think they primarily wanted to find Thrawn, because they were afraid he was plotting to return, so they could nip it in the bud.  And also finding Ezra was just an additional bonus.  Which is why Ashoka had decided that if they couldn't get to Thrawn on their own terms it was better to destroy the map than let Thrawn's allies get to him.

ETA: nevermind, I just relaized who you meant by "they".  Umm, I guess he wanted Sabine to lead them to Ezra so he could kill Ezra before he headed out.  

Edited September 28, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Kalbear]

Yeah, sorry pronouns were vague.

Though that does remind me. It bugs me how they changed the motivations from Rebels to Ahsoka in the two main characters. As this show demonstrates Ahsoka never actually had any interactions with Thrawn. Hera and Sabine did, but Ahsoka got rescued from certain death by Ezra and basically missed that entire thing. Sabine had to deal with him first hand, though, and he was a right bastard to her and Ezra and Hera. 

It seems to me that the motivations should be reversed. Ahsoka should be the one who wants to rescue Ezra no matter what - because she is the one that owes Ezra her full existence. Everything she has done since is entirely because of him. Sabine, however, should be a lot more mixed in her feelings - and often was in the show as well, especially when it came to her Mandalorian heritage. Heck, she noped out entirely for a while because of that! I know why they did it - because they wanted Sabine to go on the trip and make the choice - but that's an example of how the plot makes the characters do things that they wouldn't organically do. 

[Corvinus85]

14 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

It seems to me that the motivations should be reversed. Ahsoka should be the one who wants to rescue Ezra no matter what - because she is the one that owes Ezra her full existence. Everything she has done since is entirely because of him. Sabine, however, should be a lot more mixed in her feelings - and often was in the show as well, especially when it came to her Mandalorian heritage. Heck, she noped out entirely for a while because of that! I know why they did it - because they wanted Sabine to go on the trip and make the choice - but that's an example of how the plot makes the characters do things that they wouldn't organically do. 

Per the revelation in episode 4, it appears she no longer has a Mandalorian family, they all died in the Purge. By all rights she should have been in season 3 of The Mandalorian, but she isn't because of this. So her motivations regarding Ezra are fine.

I agree that Ahsoka shouldn't necessarily be the one that spearheads the hunt for Thrawn's associates and the prevention of his return. But it's reasonably clear that Ahsoka has continued the fight as Fulcrum against the Imperial Remnant, and her motivations are more about stopping the greatest potential threat to the New Republic. When she tells Hera about Thrawn her first line is about the rumors that the last Grand Admiral is still alive. Starting with his title was deliberate, imo, despite the fact that Hera has a better personal reason to fight Thrawn.

I will say this - the show has put aside the personal conflict between Ahsoka and Sabine and I doubt the finale will give enough time for that exploration. (but I could be wrong) The question why Ahsoka decided to train Sabine still remains and more importantly what transpired between them to end that relationship. These questions certain play a role in their current motivations. We've had clues so far, but imo not enough. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Per the revelation in episode 4, it appears she no longer has a Mandalorian family, they all died in the Purge. By all rights she should have been in season 3 of The Mandalorian, but she isn't because of this. So her motivations regarding Ezra are fine.

I don't see why that matters. That's not the point. The point is that Sabine first hand experienced how bad Thrawn was. Sabine knows how ruthless he is and how bad he was - especially for Mandalore - where her invention of weapons was used against her and her people to kill them by Thrawn. If anyone should want to ensure that Thrawn doesn't come back, no matter what - it's Sabine, not Ahsoka. 

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I agree that Ahsoka shouldn't necessarily be the one that spearheads the hunt for Thrawn's associates and the prevention of his return. But it's reasonably clear that Ahsoka has continued the fight as Fulcrum against the Imperial Remnant, and her motivations are more about stopping the greatest potential threat to the New Republic. When she tells Hera about Thrawn her first line is about the rumors that the last Grand Admiral is still alive. Starting with his title was deliberate, imo, despite the fact that Hera has a better personal reason to fight Thrawn. 

And again a lot of that doesn't make much sense, because Ahsoka's quest (at the end of Rebels) wasn't about finding Thrawn or worrying about him; it was saving Ezra. Like, that's literally what she tells Sabine that they're going to go and do. 

And that's fine that they want to drop that, but they should have established at least some reason why Ahsoka is so terrified of Thrawn, because she has, like, zero previous motivation for that. 

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I will say this - the show has put aside the personal conflict between Ahsoka and Sabine and I doubt the finale will give enough time for that exploration. (but I could be wrong) The question why Ahsoka decided to train Sabine still remains and more importantly what transpired between them to end that relationship. These questions certain play a role in their current motivations. We've had clues so far, but imo not enough. 

I think we got what we're going to get. The answer was that Ahsoka saw Sabine as not a great student and more importantly thought that a flawed student with Ahsoka as her master would lead Sabine down the dark path - the same way that her master did. I think the implied motivation is that Ahsoka believes herself to be tainted because of Anakin, and when she ran into any amount of trouble she just...quit. 

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

And again a lot of that doesn't make much sense, because Ahsoka's quest (at the end of Rebels) wasn't about finding Thrawn or worrying about him; it was saving Ezra. Like, that's literally what she tells Sabine that they're going to go and do. 

You are misremembering how Rebels ended. That epilogue was entirely from Sabine's PoV, Ahsoka doesn't say a thing. Sabine speaking to the audience says "It's time to bring Ezra home." And that epilogue actually only takes place in episode 3 of this show with the biggest retcon being Ahsoka's outfit. And we see Ahsoka entice Sabine with the possibility of saving Ezra. So nowhere is it established that Ahsoka wants to save Ezra; that is merely a bonus for her.

So going to your point about Sabine...

27 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I don't see why that matters. That's not the point. The point is that Sabine first hand experienced how bad Thrawn was. Sabine knows how ruthless he is and how bad he was - especially for Mandalore - where her invention of weapons was used against her and her people to kill them by Thrawn. If anyone should want to ensure that Thrawn doesn't come back, no matter what - it's Sabine, not Ahsoka. 

yes, she does have plenty of reason to not see Thrawn return. But her desire to save Ezra > her motivation to prevent Thrawn's return. It's the "Jedi" conflict. And I disagree that it doesn't matter that she no longer has a family to rely on.

34 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

And that's fine that they want to drop that, but they should have established at least some reason why Ahsoka is so terrified of Thrawn, because she has, like, zero previous motivation for that. 

Terrified seems like a strong word here, but I agree that neither the show nor her appearances in the other live-action shows really gave us that info. The only thing that has been implied is that she's been involved in events and causes (going by the banter between her and Huyang + whatever happened with Sabine) So what I said before stands, she still acts as Fulcrum. And the New Republic is largely useless, so someone's got to do the job.

[Kalbear]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

You are misremembering how Rebels ended. That epilogue was entirely from Sabine's PoV, Ahsoka doesn't say a thing. Sabine speaking to the audience says "It's time to bring Ezra home." And that epilogue actually only takes place in episode 3 of this show with the biggest retcon being Ahsoka's outfit. And we see Ahsoka entice Sabine with the possibility of saving Ezra. So nowhere is it established that Ahsoka wants to save Ezra; that is merely a bonus for her.

I'm pretty sure that this is inaccurate given what we see in Worlds between Worlds. You are probably right that Ahsoka doesn't say anything - but the actual text from the other episode is that Ahsoka literally owes Ezra her life:

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

So going to your point about Sabine...

yes, she does have plenty of reason to not see Thrawn return. But her desire to save Ezra > her motivation to prevent Thrawn's return. It's the "Jedi" conflict. And I disagree that it doesn't matter that she no longer has a family to rely on.

But why would Ahsoka - who doesn't identify as a Jedi and specifically hates that part of it - go that way now? She has never been about doing the greater good thing when friends are going to suffer because of it. 

8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Terrified seems like a strong word here, but I agree that neither the show nor her appearances in the other live-action shows really gave us that info. The only thing that has been implied is that she's been involved in events and causes (going by the banter between her and Huyang + whatever happened with Sabine) So what I said before stands, she still acts as Fulcrum. And the New Republic is largely useless, so someone's got to do the job.

That still doesn't track. 

If she's absolutely wanting to stop the Empire from returning (like Hera does, which DOES make sense) Ahsoka had plenty of opportunity to do that by going after Moff Gideon. Instead she goes a different way, and the obvious implication from her fight with Morgan in Mandalorian and how she was looking there was that she was specifically doing all that because she wanted to save Ezra. Otherwise - why care about where Thrawn is? She wants to know where Thrawn is so...she can make sure he stays there? That doesn't make any sense at all. 

 

 

[Werthead]

On 9/24/2023 at 3:02 PM, HokieStone said:

My feeling is that Filoni is doing his Filoni thing and using this series (and the next several series/movies?) to give a plausible reason as to how we ended up with the "First Order" and the state of events at the start of the sequel trilogy.  It seems that he's going to do that by making Thrawn the "savior" of the Imperial remnants.  So, I expect Thrawn to be around a while, and this series may even end with Ahsoka's death - and pehaps Ezra's as well.  Got to explain somehow why they aren't around in the timeframe of the sequels, and make Thrawn appear uber-competent.  Maybe Ezra's death comes in the next series...I dunno...or maybe he dies down the line as he takes out Thrawn for good (but the path to the "First Order" has been achieved).

But I wonder if he was setting up Baylan to take the role of Joruus C'baoth from Zahn's original books.  Hell, maybe even reveal that "Baylan Skoll" is a pseudonym he used to hide during the purge of Jedi, and his real name is Jorus C'baoth.  Anyway, that's all pure conjecture on my part, and would certainly be complicated by Ray Stevenson's death.  But, I imagine the character can be recast - I mean, if Dumbledore can be recast in the Harry Potter movies, surely just about any role can be recast (although it would be really really really weird to see other actors taking on the parts of Han, Leia and Luke...)

The plan was for Mandalorian Season 3 and Ahsoka to lead into an Avengers-style movie where all the characters show up to fight Thrawn, so the Mandalorian, probably Bo-Katan, maybe Boba Fett and Fennec Shand, the Rebels crew etc all join forces, likely with at least brief appearances by CG Luke and Leia (and maybe Solo-vintage Han and Lando, if they're not deemed too young?).

I believe there was a gap in the schedule and there was some debate about if they could fit Mandalorian Season 4 into the production gap before the film but then the strike made them impossible, which is why Mando 3 ends in that slightly odd way so they could do either. Now the assumption is that they'll roll straight into making the movie and try to tee-up Mando 4 for afterwards (whether there'll be an Ahsoka 2 is unclear, but I think we can safely say that Boba Fett Season 2 is off the table).

Edited September 28, 2023 by Werthead

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Boba Fett Season 2 is off the table

Wait… are you saying people didn’t love low speed hover vespa chases?

[HokieStone]

42 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 ...likely with at least brief appearances by CG Luke and Leia (and maybe Solo-vintage Han and Lando, if they're not deemed too young?...

That would be weird if they had CGI Mark Hammill and Carrie Fisher...but then had Alden Ehrenriech and Donald Glover in the Han and Lando roles. You either have to CGI them all, or get new actors for them all.  And then it would be weird if it's a new actor for Luke, since CGI Hammill has shown up a few times now.  One way I can kind of see it is if they have a new Luke actor (I know everyone wants Sebastian Shaw) grow a beard (since Luke is sporting a beard in the sequels).  That might help the transition to a new actor - kind of obscuring the entirely new face on the character.

It's a tough spot. If they have a movie where Thrawn presents a major threat to the New Republic, there's no way Luke and Leia sit on the sidelines (I would think).

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I don't see why that matters. That's not the point. The point is that Sabine first hand experienced how bad Thrawn was. Sabine knows how ruthless he is and how bad he was - especially for Mandalore - where her invention of weapons was used against her and her people to kill them by Thrawn. If anyone should want to ensure that Thrawn doesn't come back, no matter what - it's Sabine, not Ahsoka. 

That's fair, I think she wouldn't want Thrawn back at least as bad as Ahsoka, unless, Sabine's losses in Mandalore made her value her found family even more, and made the missing Ezra unacceptable. She's trying to save the member of her family she can, because she lost the others. 

Not that the show has bothered to show any of this, I'm just speculating a way it can work.

2 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

And again a lot of that doesn't make much sense, because Ahsoka's quest (at the end of Rebels) wasn't about finding Thrawn or worrying about him; it was saving Ezra. Like, that's literally what she tells Sabine that they're going to go and do. 

And that's fine that they want to drop that, but they should have established at least some reason why Ahsoka is so terrified of Thrawn, because she has, like, zero previous motivation for that. 

I think we got what we're going to get. The answer was that Ahsoka saw Sabine as not a great student and more importantly thought that a flawed student with Ahsoka as her master would lead Sabine down the dark path - the same way that her master did. I think the implied motivation is that Ahsoka believes herself to be tainted because of Anakin, and when she ran into any amount of trouble she just...quit. 

Yeah, Ahsoka's character doesn't seem to have a clear sense of what she thinks of the Jedi order and its rules. Which is convenient for the plot, but you're left wondering what's happening in her head. It doesn't help that all her conversations on this topic are cryptic, though at least that fits how the Jedi often behave.

[fionwe1987]

2 minutes ago, HokieStone said:

It's a tough spot. If they have a movie where Thrawn presents a major threat to the New Republic, there's no way Luke and Leia sit on the sidelines (I would think).

C3PO is clearly enough to represent them. In the Senate. Against the Sith. Against Thrawn. The true hero...

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I'm pretty sure that this is inaccurate given what we see in Worlds between Worlds. You are probably right that Ahsoka doesn't say anything - but the actual text from the other episode is that Ahsoka literally owes Ezra her life:

But why would Ahsoka - who doesn't identify as a Jedi and specifically hates that part of it - go that way now? She has never been about doing the greater good thing when friends are going to suffer because of it. 

That still doesn't track. 

If she's absolutely wanting to stop the Empire from returning (like Hera does, which DOES make sense) Ahsoka had plenty of opportunity to do that by going after Moff Gideon. Instead she goes a different way, and the obvious implication from her fight with Morgan in Mandalorian and how she was looking there was that she was specifically doing all that because she wanted to save Ezra. Otherwise - why care about where Thrawn is? She wants to know where Thrawn is so...she can make sure he stays there? That doesn't make any sense at all. 

 

Yes, she owes her life to Ezra, no doubt. All of this, for me, goes back to what I sad about the lack of knowledge of her whereabouts and actions during the main part of the civil war period and the immediate years after. Her motivations could have changed.