Rippounet Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Bird was very clearly trying to express the inner conflict between the thirst for brutal revenge on the one hand, and the moral imperatives of de-escalation and justice on the other. It's not fair to take only half her words. There's lots of ways to frame it, and I'm sure at least half of them are wrong, but we all understand how it works, and I'm even tempted to say that we know it's how we got to this point. At some point, indiscriminate violence begets indiscriminate violence, and once a certain point is reached, the other side is no longer considered human - good only for extermination. I personally don't believe in any kind of "humans are evil" shit, but I doubt anyone could deny that we can be vicious in retaliation. It's why violence is a terrible tool to achieve anything. Anyway, I'm hoping against hope that Israel will exercize restraint - for its own good as much as the Palestinians'. Israel has an opportunity to show that it can be respectful of human rights and human dignity even in the wake of tragedy, perhaps even to turn the page on the dreadful policies that led it to this point. Conversely, if it fails the test and goes for a bloodbath, its existence will be near-impossible to defend in the future. Prince of the North, Ser Scot A Ellison, john and 2 others 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted October 9, 2023 Author Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, polishgenius said: I'm sorry I know there's a lot of emotion and anger at the moment but this is a genuinely sickening thing to say. What the fuck. I said “part of my brain”. The rest of it disagrees. It’s exactly the same part of my brain that says “hang the bastard” when a shooter goes in and kills 25 people in a shopping mall or a school, even though I’m massively against the death penalty. So are you guys really that ok with the Hamas gunmen who chased the concert goers into the bomb shelters and gunned them down? Not one of you had a dark corner of your mind that whispered the Israelis should do the same? They are doing the same, you know. I saw that there are at least 700 dead in Gaza now, killed by the bombs and missiles being dropped on them. Which one is worse, having a guy chase you and pump you full of bullets at a concert, or having a bomb drop on your apartment building and you getting crushed to death when the building collapses on you? Are the people in Gaza more innocent than the people in Israel? Is it okay to shoot Israeli citizens because they all serve in the army at one point? I’ve heard people say that. Was it okay to shoot the other people, the non-Israelis, because by being in Israel they are supporters of Israel? You know and I know this is a fucking horrible situation. If you think it’s sick to be so disgusted that I don’t care if the Israelis respond the same way, go ahead. I don’t live there. You don’t live there. No one is going to pop up in Toronto with machine guns and gun down hundreds and hundreds of people in the street one night any time soon, and I don’t know where you live, but I bet no one is going to do that there either. And you know what? If some American para-military group crossed the border and did just that because they were pissed off at something Canada did, and a bunch of Canadians crossed the US border and did the same in retaliation, well maybe I wouldn’t give a shit either, other than shake my head and say “what a horrible situation”. eta: except, of course, you really can’t access machine guns in Canada like you can in the US, so that ain’t ever going to happen. And it would still only be that corner of the brain that lives in the feral state. Edited October 9, 2023 by Fragile Bird Ser Scot A Ellison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 35 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Israel has an opportunity to show that it can be respectful of human rights and human dignity even in the wake of tragedy, perhaps even to turn the page on the dreadful policies that led it to this point. Conversely, if it fails the test and goes for a bloodbath, its existence will be near-impossible to defend in the future. I hope for the former but fear the latter will happen. Even before the attack, the Israeli government, with the blockade, illegal settlements, attacks by the IDF and illegal settlers, bombing of UN shelters and schools, and deliberate targeting of Palestinian journalists, has shown that they view the Palestinians as subhumans to be eradicated. One only needs to look at what the defence minister said with regards to the 'complete siege' of Gaza: he called the Palestinians 'human animals'. There are innocent people in there... Crixus and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 55 minutes ago, Rippounet said: Bird was very clearly trying to express the inner conflict between the thirst for brutal revenge on the one hand, and the moral imperatives of de-escalation and justice on the other. It's not fair to take only half her words. There's lots of ways to frame it, and I'm sure at least half of them are wrong, but we all understand how it works, and I'm even tempted to say that we know it's how we got to this point. At some point, indiscriminate violence begets indiscriminate violence, and once a certain point is reached, the other side is no longer considered human - good only for extermination. I personally don't believe in any kind of "humans are evil" shit, but I doubt anyone could deny that we can be vicious in retaliation. It's why violence is a terrible tool to achieve anything. Anyway, I'm hoping against hope that Israel will exercize restraint - for its own good as much as the Palestinians'. Israel has an opportunity to show that it can be respectful of human rights and human dignity even in the wake of tragedy, perhaps even to turn the page on the dreadful policies that led it to this point. Conversely, if it fails the test and goes for a bloodbath, its existence will be near-impossible to defend in the future. Israel has never respected the human rights or UN resolutions, I have listened to Israeli Premier... come on, that's not the speech of a man that wants peace. Israel wants its territory to be the land of the only Jewish State Craving Peaches and Crixus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Netanyahu is not Israel any more than Hamas is Palestine. john, Tears of Lys, Fragile Bird and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 33 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: Israel has never respected the human rights or UN resolutions, I have listened to Israeli Premier... come on, that's not the speech of a man that wants peace. Israel wants its territory to be the land of the only Jewish State As bad as the attack on Israel was, it is almost par for the course with regard to Israeli attacks on Palestinians in terms of casualties. For example, 11,000 Palestinians were wounded by Israeli forces in an assault in 2014, and at least 2000 died, including 500 children. Prior to this recent attack, illegal settlers burned down a Palestinian village while the IDF either stood by and did nothing or shot at the Palestinians. The UN is condemning all of this but as usual no one is doing anything about it. Edited October 9, 2023 by Craving Peaches Crixus and dbergkvist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 9 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said: If that is the goal they succeed at least temporary. Austria has decided to freeze payments too(19 million €). But I don't see how not getting money for schools or hospitals is helping the average person in Gaza and the West Bank. Its not the goal but its not a significant factor in any decision making. But yes, the average person will suffer. Isn't that always the way? 59 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: If you think it’s sick to be so disgusted that I don’t care if the Israelis respond the same way, go ahead. The world is very complicated but it is very easy to say the world is much worse off if people believe this. There is no justification for the deliberate targeting of civilians. dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Israeli government is a big problem, the strategy to fight terrorism is wrong, Europe suffered terrorist attacks too, but there were not bombings of civilians as retaliation, it's a shame Israel reduced Palestine to a miserable piece of land, I am not Muslim, but it's evident Israeli politics is full of far right extremists. Nethanyau is not President, same strategy anyway, it changes nothing Craving Peaches, Crixus and dbergkvist 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said: but there were not bombings of civilians as retaliation I feel that this elides the fact that Hamas uses civilian buildings and tunnels as depots for arms, headquarters for planning, bases of operations (a whole lot of high-rises are used as rocket launch points), etc. They deliberately use the civilian population as shields, so it puts Israel in a very difficult position. It's why you often get the odd situation of Israel warning of specific buildings they are going to target, to give civilians time to clear out (but of course, it also gives Hamas time to get personnel and material out). In fact, Hamas's threat to execute hostages isn't about civilian targets being hit, it's about their being hit without sufficient warning. It's an ugly situation, and of course in urban warfare bombs and shells can always go astray, or the intelligence is bad, etc. Edited October 9, 2023 by Ran Farerb and Bael's Bastard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 Hamas managed to hit a mosque outside Jerusalem with one of their rockets (no casualties reported), a reminder that indiscriminate fire into civilian areas where Israeli Arabs live can also be a problem for them. One of the problems Israel faces is that if it could destroy or dismantle Hamas easily, it would have already done so, so if that is the goal of operation, it can only be carried out with massive civilian casualties. Hence the batshit idea that the entire civilian population of Gaza can go to the beach, Hamas can stay in the urban areas, and Israel can basically flatten the entire Strip without civilian casualties. There would seem to be problems with that plan. The hard, far right of the current Israeli government may have no problem with simply proceeding with massive civilian casualties, but quite a few in the proposed unity government would, and so would most of Israel's international partners (and certainly their enemies would make hay out of it like nothing else). Israel, of course, can't simply not respond (I mean, it could, but it's not remotely politically believable), so the question circles back around to what they can do. Removing the populist underpinnings of support for Hamas is one possible step, and they did at least reopen the borders for workers a couple of years back to allow some people to work, but from a security point of view that's now impossible to repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) While this is a tragedy on every level for everyone involved, history did not start on Saturday. It has been decades of humiliation and brutalization of Palestinians at that hands of the Israelis, it is no wonder that there are those within the Palestinians who feel like they have nothing left to live for and that at least this way they choose how they die. Driving a people to the brink will only lead to radicalization and violence and that is exactly what has gotten us to where we are today. Beyond that, the reality is that while both sides here who have blood on their hands, the State of Israel created the conditions that allowed this to happen, not only through the never ending abuse they subject the Palestinians, but also by supporting Hamas in the first place. Israel picked their enemy, choosing to square off against Islamic extremists rather than secular, generally socialist minded Palestinian nationalists who were generally the dominant faction. Netanyahu himself is quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state (Time of Israel article). Israel could end the vast majority of this conflict tomorrow by ending the occupation and system of apartheid that they are inflicting on Palestine and begin a process of truth and reconciliation to bring to justice those on both sides who have committed crimes that is necessary for a long lasting peace. Edited October 9, 2023 by GrimTuesday Crixus, Craving Peaches and dbergkvist 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said: What did they hope to achieve? Massive harm to Israel and Israelis. That's really it. Second hope is probably to turn more Palestinians against even the vaguest hope of diplomatic solutions. Why does it need to be more than that? Even experts are a bit befuddled by exactly what the objective of Hamas was. One of the takes I've seen is that even they were surprised by extent of their initial 'success' if you wanna call it that, and the corresponding response from Israel will prove this to be a Pyrrhic victory moving them much further than their stated aims than ever before. Edited October 9, 2023 by IheartIheartTesla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingAerys_II Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 The purpose of Hamas was provocation to receive bloody retaliation of civilians, they don't want Saudi Arabia to sign the agreement with Israel, It's impossible for Saudi Arabia to sign the agreement if the Palestinian casualties grow up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 24 minutes ago, Werthead said: Hamas managed to hit a mosque outside Jerusalem with one of their rockets (no casualties reported), a reminder that indiscriminate fire into civilian areas where Israeli Arabs live can also be a problem for them. One of the problems Israel faces is that if it could destroy or dismantle Hamas easily, it would have already done so, so if that is the goal of operation, it can only be carried out with massive civilian casualties. Hence the batshit idea that the entire civilian population of Gaza can go to the beach, Hamas can stay in the urban areas, and Israel can basically flatten the entire Strip without civilian casualties. There would seem to be problems with that plan. The hard, far right of the current Israeli government may have no problem with simply proceeding with massive civilian casualties, but quite a few in the proposed unity government would, and so would most of Israel's international partners (and certainly their enemies would make hay out of it like nothing else I think you're overestimating the opposition widespread killing and destruction in Gaza would have - but more importantly I think that will be an acceptable outcome to lose some support and political clout at some point internally. And honestly I don't think that those people opposing things are going to be all that outspoken any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 2 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said: I think you're overestimating the opposition widespread killing and destruction in Gaza would have - but more importantly I think that will be an acceptable outcome to lose some support and political clout at some point internally. And honestly I don't think that those people opposing things are going to be all that outspoken any time soon. You literally have people in the Knesset calling for a second Nakba, even the supposed moderates like Naftali Bennett are all for the continued suppression and further disenfranchisement of Palestinians and the continuation of the occupation. The Israeli government is completely controlled by those who would see every Palestinian expelled or eliminated and those who enable them for their own purposes. dbergkvist, Craving Peaches and Crixus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 8 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said: The Israeli government is completely controlled by those who would see every Palestinian expelled or eliminated and those who enable them for their own purposes. Right, because the Palestinian side doesn't feel the exact same way. These conversations go nowhere until you accept both sides are assholes. Padraig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 47 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said: Even experts are a bit befuddled by exactly what the objective of Hamas was. Might call into question whether they truly are "experts" or whether they truly are being honest. Or perhaps soundbite media doesn't allow for a proper response. dbergkvist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conflicting Thought Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Rippounet said: Netanyahu is not Israel any more than Hamas is Palestine. Did the sttlements began with netanyahu, did the bombings, the killings, the apartheid, the walls, the prison, the orfan children? Netanyahu is the logical conclusion of what israel has been doing for decades. Crixus, dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said: Right, because the Palestinian side doesn't feel the exact same way. These conversations go nowhere until you accept both sides are assholes. Both sides are assholes, but there is only one side that actually has any power in this relationship. There is a reason that Israel is able to cut off food, fuel and electricity to Gaza, it's because they are a captive population. Does ending the occupation end the violence entirely for either side? Probably not, but there can never be peace while it continues. Also once again, Hamas is in the position it is in due in no small part because Israel surreptitiously supported them in order to undermine the more left wing nationalist groups. Crixus, dbergkvist and Craving Peaches 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Oop North Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said: How did they get freaking powergliders to cross the border? I could probably build one in my backyard, they are not that complicated. We shouldn't be surprised that a terrorist group can do it too. Edited October 10, 2023 by Lord of Oop North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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