[Spoilers] Episode 102 Discussion

[Lord of Oldstones]

8 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I like that they mentioned the Targaryens practice polygamy but Fire and Blood weirdly went with the opposite of what they do in the real world where you might make an exception in society for polygamy (which is practiced fairly regularly in many parts of the world and historically) but not incest, which is considered an almost universal taboo and is enforced biologically by the Westermarck effect.

While it seems polygamy is the bigger taboo in Fire and Blood.

But perhaps not in Westeros' TV verse.

 

The books take on polygamy is very strange indeed incest is fine but not polygamy. Polygamy was a thing in most parts of the world. If anything polygamy was to increase chances for survival of dynasty.

Female taking multiple husband though wasnt so universal.Its still on practice in certain pockect of Himalayan & Tibet region that lack resource so brothers get married to single woman but not really like male polygamy where they marry anyone they like.

[slant]

I can easily understand what Mysaria is saying lol. Wish she was an albino, irrespective of race. Just cannot place her on the map, is she supposed to be from Lys or Lorath or further east like Yi Ti. 

Polyandry can solve the problem with succession between say two brothers, if they are married to the same wife, and the children are considered heirs to all three. 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by slant

[Lord of Oldstones]

11 hours ago, miyuki said:

The Laena-Viserys scene was surreal, David Lynch could only dream of something like this. A little black girl asking an old white man to fuck her to preserve ancient dragon nazi bloodlines. 10/10 scene, I couldn't stop laughing.

Yes it was funny how it was said as a marriage to preserve pure Valyrian bloodline between the two families. Yet in same show Alicent instantly calls Cole who's slight mediterranian & "a mystery knight" Dornish on get go

Also they were all dowplaying Laena's Targ blood except Larys Strong. 

The way Corlys describes his family its close to book in prestige & lineage. But half a year before the show start already many were making Velaryon out to be glorified tradesman constantly on sea open to marry anyone from lord to merchant daughter if it pleases them.

 

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, slant said:

I can easily understand what Mysaria is saying lol. Wish she was an albino, irrespective of race. Just cannot place her on the map, is she supposed to be from Lys or Lorath or further east like Yi Ti. 

It looks like she doesn't remember where she came from. I think she could be from Yi Ti for all we know.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Tyrion talking to Jaime and Cersei, Robert and Cersei, Ned and Bran, etc. all happened in the first two episodes. So far we have no memorable conversations. 

Your first comment was about interactions that happen in the last episodes, Robert and Cersei def didn't happen in the first two episodes, Ned had just resigned as Hand... Come on now, i get that you find it meh but some of the critics seem just contrarian just for the sake of it.

I stick to my guns, Viserys is def not weak, an idiot sure but that doesn't make him weak. The way he handles Corlys is awesome, love the actor. Like pissing Corlys is bad and all but he ponders his options and realizes there is little can do but whine... which is true in both the books and show.

 

@C.T. Phipps

Quote

That's the big issue of House of the Dragon, really, it's being judged against all of Game of Thrones.

Eh, so far it's doing a decent job. I'm not expecting GoT levels of highs but it's a pretty good show so far.

 

The wigs are terrible, i'm still on the fence whether terribly unfunny or hilarious. Like the acting is fine so i'll just roll with it but god they are awful.

About the Mysaria thing, I saw it first dubbed in spanish, then in English so i didn't really mind it that much.

 

 

@The hairy bear

 

Quote

Those offenses would be, in my opinion, already far too big for the Crown to ignore. If I had been a script advisor I'd have suggested them to scrap all that non-sense of the gold cloaks and seizing Dragonstone. It would have been enough if the Council had received news that Daemon had just left the Vale and arrived to Dragonstone with the intention of finding a dragon egg for his unborn child. That enough (as in the books) would justify the Otto going there to intervene.

Indeed, this reminds me of season 1 GoT when Tywin just casually invades the Riverlands with both Ned and Robert alive and in power just to show how cool and commanding he is, drama for the sake of it.

I'd say that Viserys just knows that his brother's just begging for attention.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but Viserys dropping the stone dragon which breaks feels like GRRM style foreshadowing. The dragon breaks in two, i.e. the split that comes, thanks to Viserys's own carelessness and inattention. Not sure if Alicent repairing it has any hidden symbolism.

Not sure if that's good foreshadowing in this regard, but they clearly seem to use gifts as a way to foreshadow relationships. Daemon gives Rhaenyra a gift, and later Alicent gives Viserys a gift, too, using pretty much the same line.

5 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

I quite liked the maggot scene with Otto subtly suggesting how dreadful the life of the king is, that he has to find a wife out of duty, not due to other desires, all the while knowing what Alicent has been doing. And Mallos, his man, is there to present a reasonable counter-argument, by reminding Viserys about duty and mending old wounds.

After rewatching things it actually seems that the reason why Viserys spurns Laena is that he actually loathes the fact that everybody seems to think Corlys is such a powerful and influential figure that he, the king, cannot afford to anger him. I think you see this in the end when he tells Corlys that he is his king, and not some dude who can push his daughter on him and he has to meekly accept this.

Don't see that Mellos is working with Otto to secure the Alicent deal. Otto uses his (likely) feigned grief and love for his dead wife as a means to make Viserys spit on Aemma if he were to replace her out of duty. But Mellos seems to offer genuine advice, and both Mellos and Otto didn't seem to know about the Velaryon offer. Otto looks surprised and concerned, fearing that his plan for Alicent has been foiled.

But so far Viserys doesn't seem to desire or love Alicent. All she seems to be to him is somebody he likes to talk to.

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if the writers for the show add one.

I also expect Alicent to be present for Rhaenyra’s death on the show too.

I think Rhaenyra's actions in this episode indicates she is going to be much more active during the show. Which is good, I think, both for a show and also for a novel about the Dance (Rhaenyra as a POV would be horrible if she were only doing the stuff she does in FaB).

I do expect her to personally execute Otto with Blackfyre while Alicent has to watch.

[The hairy bear]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'd point you to AGoT then, where another king's brother takes another king's royal fleet, crewed by men who technically are the king's men, and moves with them to the very same island to fortify it in a similar fashion, preparing for a succession war.

The two situations have nothing to do with each other. Stannis was lord of Dragonstone, and he was expected to combine his duties on the capital as member of the Small Council with going back to his seat to deal with his own matters. And he didn't "take" any royal fleet. The lords of the Narrow Sea were not stationed at King's Landing and were Stannis' bannermen anyway.

I don't follow which point are you trying to make. I claim that Daemon taking uniformed members of the City Watch away from King's Landing to take Dragonstone when he had been directly ordered by the king to return with his wife to Runestone is a transgression of the highest order. Do you disagree?

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon only served for a very short time in the books, and many men who joined the City Watch 20 or 30 years ago should no longer be on active duty. The vow sworn to Rhaenyra is weakened by old men dying and new men taking over for their fathers. There this is relevant, but not with the City Watch? This doesn't go very well together.

I believe that with the information that we already have it's perfectly believable that most of the Watch favored Daemon. It doesn't seem I'll be able to convince you, but here are a few thoughts on the matter:

• Young men hired by Daemon in 105 could easily be still serving on the Watch at 130.
• Prince Daemon was clearly an exceptional commander of the Watch. He gave them their name, equipped them properly and made them proud. But most importantly, he behaved like one of their own. He joined them on the patrols, he fought amongst them on the first line, involved himself in taking care of justice, and took his men with him on the brothels and wine-houses to celebrate. Even for the members of the City Watch that entered after his tenure and never worked under him, it's easy to imagine how a myth would develope around Daemon within the City Watch. Specially if we imagine the kind of appointments  that Otto would make afterwards: people of impeccable birth such as Gwyane Hightower that believe that they are much better than the scum that serve under them.
• It's reasonable to assume that Otto would try to put trusted men on the Watch after Daemon left. But that would only work for the high-ranking officers. The rank and file would still be Daemon's men. And even with the officers, there's a limit of what Otto could do. Everyone agreed City Watch had been improved under Daemon's rule, and he could not justify a big purge just because of a personal animosity.
• The vow sworn to Rhaenyra is weakened by old men dying, sure, but it doesn't disappear. In fact, she gets more support than Aegon. And the lords of the realm didn't have any particular reason to love Rhaenyra, while the men of the City Watch thrived under Daemon.

Edited August 30, 2022 by The hairy bear

[butterweedstrover]

It took me awhile to realize that episode 2 takes place 6 months after episode 1. And now episode 3 takes places after the birth of Aegon. 

This is going to be a big problem, skipping over major events and motivations and just having us accept the sudden shifts in characterization without having to make it feel earned. 

Alicent and Viserys' relationship is the first victim of this style, let's so how they handle the rest. 

[Daeron the Daring]

People talk about the lack of humor, and I agree. I can't see how they could bring any fun to later seasons, when they began beheading children, tearing apart infants, driving each other crazy in case they decide not to kill each other. 
 

Not to mention Viserys is probably the most funny guy of the season, and we know where that ends.

[Daeron the Daring]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It took me awhile to realize that episode 2 takes place 6 months after episode 1. And now episode 3 takes places after the birth of Aegon. 

This is going to be a big problem, skipping over major events and motivations and just having us accept the sudden shifts in characterization without having to make it feel earned. 

Alicent and Viserys' relationship is the first victim of this style, let's so how they handle the rest. 

Considering they intend to spend 3 seasons on the Dance itself, they really should've made Viserys' reign 2 seasons long.

[The Bard of Banefort]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if that's good foreshadowing in this regard, but they clearly seem to use gifts as a way to foreshadow relationships. Daemon gives Rhaenyra a gift, and later Alicent gives Viserys a gift, too, using pretty much the same line.

After rewatching things it actually seems that the reason why Viserys spurns Laena is that he actually loathes the fact that everybody seems to think Corlys is such a powerful and influential figure that he, the king, cannot afford to anger him. I think you see this in the end when he tells Corlys that he is his king, and not some dude who can push his daughter on him and he has to meekly accept this.

Don't see that Mellos is working with Otto to secure the Alicent deal. Otto uses his (likely) feigned grief and love for his dead wife as a means to make Viserys spit on Aemma if he were to replace her out of duty. But Mellos seems to offer genuine advice, and both Mellos and Otto didn't seem to know about the Velaryon offer. Otto looks surprised and concerned, fearing that his plan for Alicent has been foiled.

But so far Viserys doesn't seem to desire or love Alicent. All she seems to be to him is somebody he likes to talk to.

I think Rhaenyra's actions in this episode indicates she is going to be much more active during the show. Which is good, I think, both for a show and also for a novel about the Dance (Rhaenyra as a POV would be horrible if she were only doing the stuff she does in FaB).

I do expect her to personally execute Otto with Blackfyre while Alicent has to watch.

Aren’t Ned’s personal beheadings notable because the other houses don’t do it themselves? I don’t expect Rhaenyra, a queen, will believe it’s dignified to behead someone herself. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

This thread/article praises the showrunners for its depiction of child marriages re: Alicent, but I personally feel it’s undeserved. This was their own creation—in the books, Alicent gets married at age 18 and Viserys is not yet 30. I don’t think the showrunners deserve a pat on the back for portraying something as controversial when they deliberately chose to make it that way.

 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Aren’t Ned’s personal beheadings notable because the other houses don’t do it themselves? I don’t expect Rhaenyra, a queen, will believe it’s dignified to behead someone herself. 

Daemon already did it in the pilot.

It isn't the rule, but I think if they have Blackfyre as a prop in the show it should be featured and wielded eventually. In the book it just disappears.

Alternatively, of course, Daemon could do those executions with Dark Sister - like he does with Vaemond Velaryon in the book - but in context it wouldn't really work that the monarch hand Blackfyre to somebody else. It is the king's sword, after all.

[Khloey]

8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I finally got to watch the promo for episode 3 , and damn ... I did not expect to find myself so excited for Stepstones! but I am excited .

 

another thing there , I know we've been focusing on how aging up Rhaenyra has whitewashed Alicent for the beginning of the series ( I still think we can properly hate her in future!) , but the impact is much higher on Criston Cole ... I mean , as Rhaenyra's sworn shield throughout her childhood , Criston feels much more like a creepy uncle figure than Daemon ever did , considering Daemon left when she was a kid and returned when she was a grown woman (by Westerosi standards of course) . this has totally changed the dynamic there and in this version Rhaenyra could potentially be the bad guy in that story...

I agree ! I was so ready to hate Criston Cole, way more than Alicent, whom I don't really consider a villain.. But this guy is like a modern incel. since I don't want Rhaenyra to be whitewashed either, I really hope they don't make her the bad guy in this break-up..

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

37 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Considering they intend to spend 3 seasons on the Dance itself, they really should've made Viserys' reign 2 seasons long.

Also, if they deicided to make Rhaenyra and Alicent BFFs, I feel that we should have been given time to see them being friends. Now they're estranged by the second episode, so their friendship doesn't have that much impact on viewers.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Crixus]

21 hours ago, Mark Antony said:

Dude who plays the sea snake is awesome. Mvp of the episode imo. Never thought I’d be so hype for the stepstones 

Same. He exudes dignity and authority, and he's pretty damned hot lol. 

[Khloey]

22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This thread/article praises the showrunners for its depiction of child marriages re: Alicent, but I personally feel it’s undeserved. This was their own creation—in the books, Alicent gets married at age 18 and Viserys is not yet 30. I don’t think the showrunners deserve a pat on the back for portraying something as controversial when they deliberately chose to make it that way.

The marriage between Alicent and Viserys doesn't qualify as a child marriage at all. Alicent is young compared to Viserys but she's clearly older than Laena. A teen, but definitly not a child in my view. But maybe that's because I'm French and it seems to me that Americans always refer to people under 21 as children, which sounds grotesque to me.

[frenin]

34 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This thread/article praises the showrunners for its depiction of child marriages re: Alicent, but I personally feel it’s undeserved. This was their own creation—in the books, Alicent gets married at age 18 and Viserys is not yet 30. I don’t think the showrunners deserve a pat on the back for portraying something as controversial when they deliberately chose to make it that way.

 

Can you tell me where do they say that Alicent is 14 in the show? Till this episode I was convinced she was 18, she certainly looks the part.

I will never understand fans obsession with child marriages, they are creepy and should be fast forwarded as much as possible. 

 

18 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Same. He exudes dignity and authority, and he's pretty damned hot lol. 

Sometimes I love him, sometimes I just don't. I'm on the fence with the guy.

[Crixus]

I enjoyed both episodes a lot. Could also be because I'm currently re-reading F&B. I actually didn't mind the lack of humour at all; this is likely because while I loved the humour in the early seasons of GoT, I absolutely loathed the 'cock-balls-cock/i drink and know things' bullshit in the later ones. Ugh. So I'm perfectly happy with the absence of a clearly obvious 'witty' character atm.

I'm Asian, but I have to say, some of the criticism in the media - I believe @The Bard of Banefort shared a couple of links - stretches credulity and is exasperating. Are we saying Asian actors can only play powerful paragons of virtue? Why not wait and see how Mysaria develops a bit? Also, I personally did not get any romantic vibes between Alicent and Rhaenyra - they seemed like close friends and confidantes. It's almost as if 2 friends can't have a moment of affection without people labelling it as romance or queer-baiting. I wouldn't be surprised if some viewers think Rhaenyra is jealous of Viserys/Alicent because she's in love with Alicent.... sigh. 

Question: do we have any indication where S1 will end? It's cool if not. Just wondering. 

Another question: re-reading F&B, it struck me just how bleak that shit is. So many kids end up dying horribly. Are they going to show all that? I believe they've cast Jace, Luce and Joff along with Aemond and Aegon II, which makes me think yes. But imagining them showing the fate of Jaehaerys and Maelor... jeez. Wonder how the audience, especially non-readers, will react? I don't think I have the stomach for it myself. 

[Daeron the Daring]

35 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, if they deicided to make Rhaenyra and Alicent BFFs, I feel that we should have been given time to see them being friends. Now they're estranged by the second episode, so their friendship doesn't have that much impact on viewers.

I'm never gonna stop whining about Aemma's so early death. The interactions with other characters she never got. I guess having her alive for 2 episodes would've been much better. This way we got a character we feel had a weight on the story, but we never get to know her properly..