[Spoilers] Episode 108 Discussion

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I unapologetically hope they portray the Greens as aboslute evil and scum and the Blacks as flawed heroes who need to destroy the Greens utterly.

Well, there are two types of flaws. 

Flaws in execution, and flaws in moral contribution. 

The former is when the good guys create unnecessary suffering from mistakes in judgment. The latter is when the good guys embrace a certain evil to further their goals. 

So far, Rhaenyra has been clean. Not only in her actions, but in her reactions. She does not give way to idle gossip, rumor mongering, anger, or bitterness. She is the model of an upright person dealing with each blow as they come and not giving in to hatred. 

Anyways, I don't think this is what Martin intended and there is a fundamental problem for how the narrative is framed. If Alicent has zero justification for her actions, then following her decision process becomes an unnecessary tangent that removes focus from the heroes and their internal struggles between right and wrong. 

So far, allying with a psychopath to put her rapist son on the throne really serves no purpose but to gain power for herself, something she has showed no interest in. The dumb prophecy at the end is perhaps the weakest of justifications as not only is it wrong, it has nothing to do with her character arc or internal dilemmas. This is the first she is hearing of this nonsense. 

[butterweedstrover]

21 minutes ago, DMC said:

You really are a legend in your own mind.

My issue is you asserting you know how viewers will interpret scenes when it's patently clear you have no idea.  And then, you try to tell people Martin "wouldn't want" the show to be depicted this way on the same exact day he literally makes a blog post saying how much he loves the show.  It's ludicrous.

I didn't assert that. I asserted that the way the show is portraying Daemon's evil is superficial and done in such a way that removes any moral ramification for his character in the long term. 

I then followed through by providing reactions that attest to just that through a sample on social media (and on this site), since the initial argument wasn't convincing enough to you (despite not engaging with it on very deep level).   

edit: As for Martin, it's really simple. He wanted a story with no easy sides to root for, and characters who behave in morally ambiguous ways.  

Alicent, allying with a known psychopath to to put her rapist son on the throne by manipulating her mentally vulnerable husband isn't morally ambiguous because she has no real reason to do this besides: 

a.) power (which is not something she is shown to want) 

b.) that stupid prophecy which is totally irrelevant to her character and development.  

edit2: Also keep in mind there are things the show is doing well to Martin's perspective. Paddy Considine is doing an excellent job with Viserys and giving the character a serious emotional sophistication not seen in the source material.  

The acting has all around been excellent. And some of the drama like the family scenes have an intensity to them that play well on television, my problem is more about the direction the story is taking through these minor but critical decisions (like having Vaemond call Rhaenyra a whore). 

Incidentally the first five episodes had the opposite problem. The broad strokes were good, but the more technical stuff like pacing, dialogue, and cinematics was were the show dropped the ball. 

Stuff like dialogue has gotten better (while still lacking in levity/humor). The cinematography is better (while still being too dark). And the pacing has improved, but problems remain. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Painted Dog said:

I always felt like Daemon's decision to take on Aemond was about his desire to die a hero and go down in history in the most dramatic way possible.  Not because he was suicidal over a woman.  He was spending time with Nettles as what he saw as the best bet to take Aemond down (surviving a one on one battle was always going go be near impossible against Vhagar).  The obsession was more with Aemond than anything.  There's a weird mirror or connection between Aemond and Daemon so that they always were going to try to kill each other even if Rhaenyra was out of the picture (The show seems to be emphasizing this too with how Aemond looks).  When the options were removed to keep hunting in a way that he'd survive, Daemon sped up the timeline and added in an extra-dramatic blaze of glory.

I felt like Rhaenyra turning on the Dragonseeds was a terrible and hypocritical act considering she'd happily kill or wage war for her own bastards. They were allies (not even well-compensated) and it was especially unfair in the case of Addam and Nettles who had not been proven disloyal.   Early on, she would have had killed those who gossiped about her, but in the end would kill someone else over gossip.  Made me go from liking Rhaenyra to really disliking her.

Daemon's heroic suicide is about Rhaenyra's last order. He lost faith in what he believed was the order of the world, that Targaryens are superior and that Rhaenyra's is worth serving, loving and obeying as queen. His death is an abandonment of Rhaenyra and his faith in Targaryen supremacy.

But he would not turn traitor or coward.

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

i definitely agree that it seems the show is much more Team Black than Team Green

The whole story, as it was written, is much more Team Black than Team Green.

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The dumb prophecy at the end is perhaps the weakest of justifications as not only is it wrong, it has nothing to do with her character arc or internal dilemmas. This is the first she is hearing of this nonsense. 

Well, I think that the show is making it a part of her character arc.

Alicent in the show has always been depicted as religious. But now, the show has taken it upon itself to make Alicent beyond the territory of simply religious and well into the territory of true believer. Not quite zealot but true believer in the sense that she lives and breathes what she believes.

They are using this prophecy (which in the show universe is both idiotic and bittersweet given how GoT completely trashed it) as a means of giving Alicent a more higher calling. They might even be framing this conflict as a quasi-religious and spiritual battle as well...much like the Second Dance between Dany and fAegon will be framed.

I don't see anything wrong with it if you can look past how D&D's stupidity ruined everything.

25 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

So far, Rhaenyra has been clean. Not only in her actions, but in her reactions. She does not give way to idle gossip, rumor mongering, anger, or bitterness. She is the model of an upright person dealing with each blow as they come and not giving in to hatred. 

I wouldn't say she is clean.

Yes, Rhaenyra has grown up to be a mature, level-headed woman. And she has never been one for idle gossip and rumormongering...particularly the more damaging type.

But she has what you call flaws in execution. Very sloppy ones at that as the last three episodes have been dominated by the fact that Rhaenyra 1) has made three stupid mistakes, 2) has really bad luck, 3) lacks the willpower to convince or compel her first husband to do the right thing and 4) and is more than willing to lie, deceive and misdirect to cover herself.

.

Overall, she is still upright. But she is struggling to carry the very heavy burden she has been tasked with carrying.

And with her struggling so much, you know Aegon would do much worse. But honestly, Aemond would do better than both of them combined...but Aemond is also very mean-spirited and would probably rape his wife every single chance he got so long as she gave him at least two heirs.

12 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Daemon's heroic suicide is about Rhaenyra's last order. He lost faith in what he believed was the order of the world, that Targaryens are superior and that Rhaenyra's is worth serving, loving and obeying as queen. His death is an abandonment of Rhaenyra and his faith in Targaryen supremacy.

But he would not turn traitor or coward.

I've always viewed Daemon's last stand as a way to conclusively prove that Rhaenyra (and by extension, everyone else in the realm who ever doubted, distrusted or denigrated him) was wrong. Wrong in general yes but specifically wrong about him

I don't think his purpose was to abandon Rhaenyra. Because if so, why subject himself to all of that? Why not leave with Nettles? Or better yet why not take off on his own?

I'm interested in seeing how the show depicts this whole issue. Because the person who is really to blame for this particular bit of chaos and angst is Mysaria.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by BlackLightning

[Painted Dog]

6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Daemon's heroic suicide is about Rhaenyra's last order. He lost faith in what he believed was the order of the world, that Targaryens are superior and that Rhaenyra's is worth serving, loving and obeying as queen. His death is an abandonment of Rhaenyra and his faith in Targaryen supremacy.

But he would not turn traitor or coward.

I can see that to some extent as well to be honest. I do not see him as a traitor and think he felt Rhaenyra turned on him and I think he didn't like that she turned on Dragonseeds either (at least he felt the order to kill Nettles was wrong).  I felt like he saw killing Aemond as accomplishing what he set out to do as well.  It's an obsession, but not an unjustified one.  Aemond was a legitimate threat to his family along with there being a vendetta (and part of the vendetta may even have been over him taking Laena's dragon).  Killing Aemond was also an FU to everyone, "you're going to call me a traitor but I just took out your biggest enemy."  

[butterweedstrover]

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The whole story, as it was written, is much more Team Black than Team Green. 

The show was suppose to give nuance to both sides, not remove it.

The greens have no legitimate motivation anymore, and the blacks are shown to be above petty feuding (as both Rhaenyra and her children are the ones trying to extinguish conflict at every turn rather than the conflict being something both sides feed into). 

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Well, I think that the show is making it a part of her character arc. 

Then this is terrible writing. We had 8(!) episodes of character development to build up to this conflict. We are introduced to concepts like Alicent's fear for her children, Her potential jealousy of Rhaenyra, Rhaenyra's potential divisiveness as queen, etc. 

And instead of deciding upon a motive that has been set up, they go with something total irrelevant to her story and character (up until this point). Now that might not be the reason Alicent goes through and names Aegon heir but... 

The only other reason left for her to betray a friend and name her rapist son as king is for sake of power, something she has showed no desire for in the past.

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Alicent in the show has always been depicted as religious. But now, the show has taken it upon itself to make Alicent beyond the territory of simply religious and well into the territory of true believer. Not quite zealot but true believer in the sense that she lives and breathes what she believes. 

Actually, the show makes a point about how the Targaryen prophecies and conceptions of biological supremacy are at odds with the faith of seven. The episode of Rhaenyra complains about the replacement of Valyrian decorations with those of the Seven. Combining them in what amounts to a misunderstanding is a very flimsy basis for us to get invested into a multi-season war. 

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

 

Yes, Rhaenyra has grown up to be a mature, level-headed woman. And she has never been one for idle gossip and rumormongering...particularly the more damaging type.

But she has what you call flaws in execution. Very sloppy ones at that as the last three episodes have been dominated by the fact that Rhaenyra 1) has made three stupid mistakes, 2) has really bad luck, 3) lacks the willpower to convince or compel her first husband to do the right thing and 4) and is more than willing to lie, deceive and misdirect to cover herself. 

These flaws fall under the category of execution, not moral failings. It can be frustrating for viewers to watch people make mistakes, but as of right now Rhaenyra has not shown any character flaw as regards to her moral standing. 

She has not lost her patience, snapped at someone, or shown even the slightest bit of anger since the time skip, despite all the pressure she has been under. 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by butterweedstrover

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s incredibly weird that he hasn’t come up by now, especially during all those toasts.

My bigger issue is that the show is acting like it never happened. It’s not something that should just be brushed over. Much like the allegations that Rhaenyra killed Laenor, these rumors should be haunting her and Daemon now.

I’m not an Elizabethan expert, but wasn’t her paramour Robert Dudley undone by rumors that he murdered his wife, even though most historians don’t believe he did?

That seems to be the show's silly take on mortal violence being committed in front of everyone which concerns no one. It is the tourney, the butchery at the wedding, and Daemon's murder of Vaemond Velaryon.

In the book Daemon wouldn't have gotten away with the latter, just as Criston or some knights wouldn't have gotten away with the former. You don't draw steel in the king's presence, and, brother of the king or not, you also don't murder somebody in front of the king.

The whole thing really breaks suspension of disbelief for me.

The Rhea thing isn't that much of an issue, though, since it was apparently never actually proved, so it is not that big of an issue since Viserys would never side with some Royce against his brother.

It didn't happen blatantly in front of everyone like the other things.

1 hour ago, Painted Dog said:

I always felt like Daemon's decision to take on Aemond was about his desire to die a hero and go down in history in the most dramatic way possible.  Not because he was suicidal over a woman.  He was spending time with Nettles as what he saw as the best bet to take Aemond down (surviving a one on one battle was always going go be near impossible against Vhagar).  The obsession was more with Aemond than anything.  There's a weird mirror or connection between Aemond and Daemon so that they always were going to try to kill each other even if Rhaenyra was out of the picture (The show seems to be emphasizing this too with how Aemond looks).  When the options were removed to keep hunting in a way that he'd survive, Daemon sped up the timeline and added in an extra-dramatic blaze of glory.

The problem with such an interpretation just is that this is just not in the text. The reader is filling gaps between the lines with what he or she think the character(s) are about. Daemon and Aemond have similar personalities, yes, but they have no personal issues at all in the book. Aemond may have killed one of Daemon's stepsons, but Daemon is never portrayed as particularly caring about Lucerys Velaryon or any of the other children.

Killing Aemond also does fulfill no purpose, and doing it by way of killing himself and Caraxes robs Rhaenyra and his family of a crucial asset they might desperately need in the battles that are yet to come (whilst Aemond could easily enough be taken out in a less risky and more conventional manner - by luring him into a trap and assassinating him).

This whole thing is a pointless murder-suicide, and the idea that it is 'a glorious death' is also pretty much mistaken. That people know about Daemon jumping dragons and personally killing Aemond is something they could only draw from the evidence of Aemond's corpse - which could have easily have lost like Daemon's. The dragon battle as such was also not witnessed by many people.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I didn’t get a chance to respond to this in the last thread, but regarding how Septon Eustace absolves Rhaenyra of guilt by portraying her as a pawn, and whether that’s sexist on its own, it’s a bit like the horseshoe theory of sexual harassment that we have today. The example I usually use (because remarkably few people are offended by it) is Bill Clinton. In the 90s, conservatives thought he was a creep who preyed on young women, whereas liberals defended him and called his critics prudes. Conservatives still feel the same way today, only now young liberals also think Clinton is a creep who preys on young women, and he’s treated as a kind of embarrassing uncle that everyone wishes would just go away. So Eustace may be more conservative and “old school,” but that tends to come across as being sympathetic to Rhaenyra to readers today.

Eustace doesn't really absolve Rhaenyra ... he just doesn't tell outrageous nonsense about her like Mushroom does. Rhaenyra is also a pawn in Mushroom's seduction story - Rhaenyra is there so dumb that she willingly participates in her own corruption, very much like Cécile de Volanges. Daemon also has pretty much the same plan as the Marquise de Merteuil and the Vicomte de Valmont - he wants to ruin Rhaenyra in the eyes of both Criston Cole and her father.

Eustace seems to be able to see the girl in the woman he later allegedly didn't like all that much. He doesn't portray Queen Rhaenyra as a pawn, nor Rhaenyra as a puppet in the hands of older man who tried to seduce her.

[chrisdaw]

52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

don't think his purpose was to abandon Rhaenyra. Because if so, why subject himself to all of that? Why not leave with Nettles? Or better yet why not take off on his own?

Because he's not a coward, traitor or deserter, because the other team isn't right or good and Aemond needs stopping. Because he's lost faith in the cause and as such his justification for what he's done and so doesn't really deserve to live either, he's as much responsible for this whole terrible thing as any and he's going to do what? Run away to live happily ever after and leave this shit for everyone else?

He's amongst the loosest most hated actors in all this, he can't turn politician and start healing the realm's wounds and bringing the sides together after what he's done, and he's no ability for it anyway. His last act is a repentant one, it is him taking responsibility for that part of the mess directly in front of him that perhaps only he could, thus the heavy solemn mood those passages take on.

The Daemon arc is young Daemon thinking we dragon lords should do whatever we want, Westeros is our playground -> Old Daemon surveying the destruction the dragon lords have wreaked on the realm and deciding we aren't worth shit. Then old Daemon goes and sacrifices himself to kill Aemond, who is a reflection of his younger self, a whole one letter different.

Edited October 12, 2022 by chrisdaw

[TormundsWoman]

On 10/9/2022 at 10:30 PM, RumHam said:

I still feel like there's room to reveal that Otto had been poisoning him for years. The king improved in his absence, and then withered when Otto returned. 

I was 100% sure all the sniffing Daemon did when him and Rhaenyra were in Viserys's room was going to end with an accusation of poisoning! They know what milk of the poppy is, how it smells like, what is it for and they saw in how much pain the king was, why would you sniff so at that glass?!

[C.T. Phipps]

On my end, I don't think that Alicent ever actually believes that Rhaenyra wants to kill her sons but she can't really 100% be certain that she won't because Rhaenyra lies to her face about things like screwing Daemon. There's also the fact that she is loyal to her father, House, and the traditions of Westeros that say that Aegon should be king.

I don't think people need to overthink it.

Alicent is on the side of tradition and hates that Rhaenyra has defied so much of it that it infuriates her more.

Unlike @Lord Varys, I also don't have a problem with the idea she's mentally alone and isolated because we see how her ladies in waiting treat her as they basically force her into King Viserys bed and create a sense of isolation with her. It's probable that she has acquaintances but no one to complain about what she's REALLY feeling - that she hates Viserys and her marriage to him and her former best friend is now her political enemy.

So Alicent crumbles under the pressure of being the "Good One" and comes to hate Rhaenyra as the Bad One.

Edited October 12, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

They know what milk of the poppy is, how it smells like, what is it for and they saw in how much pain the king was, why would you sniff so at that glass?!

To make sure it is indeed just milk of the poppy?  I agree the episode at numerous times hinted at the poison angle, but the fact they didn't go for it seems to confirm it's not going to be an issue now that Viserys is, ya know, dead.  That was the episode to at least give more of an indication to the viewer.  Unless Viserys is only mostly dead...

[Leticia Stark]

2 hours ago, Painted Dog said:

 The obsession was more with Aemond than anything. 

Funny, I just found a thread with book quotes of Aemond talking about Daemon and he’s truly obsessed with him.

[TormundsWoman]

On 10/9/2022 at 11:41 PM, ShadowKitteh said:

Helaena: “Beware the beast under the boards.”

I loved that! I did think of Blood & Cheese. I also think it's a reference to them. In F&B one of the ideas put forth is that they were actually sent for Aegon but got to Haelena and the kids so when she said that, I think she may have simply glimpsed a sense B&C are coming for Aegon (?). You never know which ideas or versions the writers will pick up from the book.

On 10/10/2022 at 7:14 AM, Winterfell is Burning said:

I don't think beheading a man, going behind his back leaving no chance of defending himself, and against the King's wishes, is a redeeming moment.

I'm sure it wasn't meant to be. Daemon dared him. And in his mind it was probably planned. It was still the coolest death I've seen yet. Also, Vaemond was cutting off Baela and endangered Rhaenyra's kids with his claim, so I am fine. He totally knew he's dying. He yelled at the heir of the throne that she's a whore and her children are bastards and have no claim to the throne. It's hardly unexpected. And while the king would have only cut his tongue, I doubt he'd complain about the resolution even if he was healthy...

On 10/10/2022 at 9:19 AM, Leticia Stark said:

I was waiting for some groundbreaking scene from Aemond after the critics hyped him to moon and back all week only for him to just stand and look like an psycho/Daemon cosplayer. I mean, the toast was fine but it came across more of him still being bitter about a childs joke that even his own brother was involved lol

Anyway, Pad and Matt Smith the highlights as always.

I thought the scenes with Ewan Mitchell were really good myself, and they played to more than insulting his nephews and drawing lines where the greens and balcks stood at youth category so to speak.

I found them to be an excellent set up of Aemond vs Daemon. Aemond studied Daemon in the throne room. He saw his uncle slice Vaemonds' head cool as cucumber and without a twitch. He is pissing around to see if and how he can provoke him. He also tries to stare him down after the Strong scene. There's def vibes there. I totally ship them as archenemies.

On 10/10/2022 at 12:30 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

Vaemond Velaryon: U bitsch.

Daemon: Keep my wife's name out your fucken mouth!

LOL thank you! I thought no one would say it.

Edited October 12, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Unlike @Lord Varys, I also don't have a problem with the idea she's mentally alone and isolated because we see how her ladies in waiting treat her as they basically force her into King Viserys bed and create a sense of isolation with her. It's probable that she has acquaintances but no one to complain about what she's REALLY feeling - that she hates Viserys and her marriage to him and her former best friend is now her political enemy.

I only have an issue there with Alicent feeling like this when Aegon is already three years old, i.e. she is four years into her marriage with Viserys. At that time she should have settled into her role as queen. The transition from lesser daughter of House Hightower (whose father was just Hand as long as the king felt like it) to queen certainly should have been somewhat bumpy, but four years later she should have mastered that.

I mean, by that time Alicent should have a coterie of clients and favorites, enjoying herself as a patroness of the arts and the Faith and her extended family - like Alysanne and many a queen she should arrange matches between the great houses, take in boys and girls as a royal wards, etc. It should be very easy to befriend people that way, especially her own cousins and other relations.

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

So Alicent crumbles under the pressure of being the "Good One" and comes to hate Rhaenyra as the Bad One.

Actually, I'm not sure we will ever get Alicent as a clear-cut villain. Just because she helps starts the war doesn't make her a bad person as such.

I must applaud the writers for resisting the temptation of introducing a cheap 'poisoning' or 'pillow murder' plot there. The book has Mushroom entertain the notion of Alicent poisoning Viserys, and it would have been easy to include this in the show. Even more so since George really seems to like I, Claudius very much.

But the writers really wanted to make it a point that Alicent really is not like Graves' Livia at all. She isn't an evil stepmother, she didn't marry the guy in charge to put her blood on the throne, and she sure as hell didn't murder said husband at the end of decades-long marriage because he was about to thwart her most insidious plans.

I think we can expect a nuanced, measured version of Alicent throughout the show, one who will try to make peace later on like she does in the book, who begs Rhaenyra for the lives of her children, etc.

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

To make sure it is indeed just milk of the poppy?  I agree the episode at numerous times hinted at the poison angle, but the fact they didn't go for it seems to confirm it's not going to be an issue now that Viserys is, ya know, dead.  That was the episode to at least give more of an indication to the viewer.  Unless Viserys is only mostly dead...

Viserys wasn't poisoned. I mean, it may take more than one view of the episode, but the man must be in monstrous, nearly unbearable pain. True enough, Alicent and Otto jump on the chance to use Viserys being a confused drug addict to their advantage when the Vaemond situation presents itself - which they didn't cause, but presented itself simply because (1) Corlys nearly died, and (2) Vaemond Velaryon decided to challenge the succession of Driftmark (which he certainly does in part because he expects to have friends in KL, to be sure).

But Alicent is not lying when she tells Daemon and Rhaenyra about the man's dreadful pain. Daemon is not correct when he accuses her of deliberately creating this situation to exploit the situation to their advantage. They do exploit it, anyway, but they did not create it.

If they had created the situation, Alicent would have taken steps to prevent Rhaenyra and Daemon from visiting her ailing, befuddled husband. She and Otto could have done that, but they take no steps to keep them out of Viserys' chambers ... nor do they hide his medicines and potions.

If we think about Viserys death then the person who killed him was actually Rhaenyra ... because it is quite clear that her plea to come to defense of her and her sons is what roused him from his bed and cost him all the strength he had left. Viserys dies because he stopped drinking the milk of the poppy, because he walked to the throne room, ascended the Iron Throne, and had a lengthy dinner with his family. He may have lived some more weeks or months even, if he hadn't had to suffer through all that, especially without any pain medication.

(What is the greatest hypocrisy I've ever heard in the show so far is the Small Council discussion about the Driftmark succession and the 'arguments' they come up to justify their blatant power grab there. That, too, feels like a trial run for the coup to crown Aegon II. The interests of the Realm always happen to allign with our own petty interests. It seems Alicent acts and thinks this way also mostly because Otto never actually had the grace to openly talk about his ambitions and goals and feelings ... always hiding everything behind grand gestures and talk about the public good bordering on outright lies.)

I'm also wondering - do they intend to parallel Viserys and Aegon II's take on illness and pain medication? The great think about Paddy's acting is how he played Viserys' horrible sickness with grace and bravery - the man really never complained about his lot in life.

Aegon won't suffer from an illness, but a succession of horribly disfiguring and very painful injuries. It could be very interesting to see how different Aegon reacts to his lot in life, with him getting angrier and angrier because he ends up blaming others for his pain and crippling injuries.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys wasn't poisoned. I mean, it may take more than one view of the episode, but the man must be in monstrous, nearly unbearable pain. True enough, Alicent and Otto jump on the chance to use Viserys being a confused drug addict to their advantage when the Vaemond situation presents itself - which they didn't cause, but presented itself simply because (1) Corlys nearly died, and (2) Vaemond Velaryon decided to challenge the succession of Driftmark (which he certainly does in part because he expects to have friends in KL, to be sure).

But Alicent is not lying when she tells Daemon and Rhaenyra about the man's dreadful pain. Daemon is not correct when he accuses her of deliberately creating this situation to exploit the situation to their advantage. They do exploit it, anyway, but they did not create it.

I don't think I'd describe someone in chronic pain legitimately in need of sedatives as a "drug addict," but yeah, entirely agree with the rest.  Again, Alicent and Otto should not be blamed for properly medicating Viserys.  It's how they take advantage of that that's the problem.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

think we can expect a nuanced, measured version of Alicent throughout the show, one who will try to make peace later on like she does in the book, who begs Rhaenyra for the lives of her children, etc.

I mean Alicent has already covered up the murder of Harwin Strong and his father.

And now covers up for her son's rapes.

She's "nuanced" but already crossed the Moral Event Horizon.

[BlackLightning]

Did anyone else notice how Rhaena had to hold Baela back when the boys started fighting?

I can't wait to see what they are going to do with those two girls. Particularly Baela. If they were smart, they would make

Spoiler

The fall of Dragonstone more of a legitimate battle that the Blacks lose instead of another silly coup.

Oh, and the lead-up to the big battle on Dragonstone. It should be a little "murder mystery" whodunnit subplot simmering in the background...

It's another reason why we should see an adaptation of the Regency and the Lysene Spring. They are pretty important. Plus, I don't think this show should end without showing (explicitly or implicitly) what happened to the dragons and all the eggs that they keep laying.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing Aemond also does fulfill no purpose, and doing it by way of killing himself and Caraxes robs Rhaenyra and his family of a crucial asset they might desperately need in the battles that are yet to come (whilst Aemond could easily enough be taken out in a less risky and more conventional manner - by luring him into a trap and assassinating him).

While I do think that Daemon's suicide mission was both stupid and egregiously damaging to the Blacks, I have to disagree on the point of killing Aemond.

Aemond is an expert dragonrider (who also happens to command the world's largest and most powerful dragon) and he's the fiercest/best warrior that the Greens have. He cannot be left alone to his own devices...especially not with him committing the worst bit of chevauchee that Westeros has ever seen. Keep in mind that Aemond's genocidal spree is part of the reason why Cregan Stark and Jeyne Arryn cannot immediately deploy their forces and send them southwards. He's in the Riverlands...both the valemen and the northmen need to traverse the Riverlands in order to both relieve the Riverlands and secure King's Landing from the Hightower and Baratheon armies.

 

Could Aemond have been taken out in a more conventional manner? He would be very hard to kill if he was alone...with an escort, it'd be even harder. Plus, he seems to exercise discretion and safety in his more private moments as he keeps to only one bed with one woman.

Granted, her enemies in the West were contained and preoccupied by the Ironborn, but she simply could not afford to send most of her dragonriders after Aemond on what, at the end of the day, amounted to a wild goose chase with enemies within King's Landing, at Storm's End and in Oldtown.

It would take two dragonriders and an army to deal with Aemond. Rhaenyra had the right of it the first time. Her first true mistake was turning against the Dragonseeds. She needed all the help she could get.

[Corvinus85]

Personally I'm curious about what is going to happen now with that enormous miniature of Old Valyria in the king's chambers. Will it be:

1) destroyed on Alicent's order because it is a reminder of a godless society?

2) destroyed by accident by Aegon II because he fucks around it, on it, underneath it etc.

3) destroyed in a fire at some point during the Dance, with the imagery of the fiery destruction as being a metaphor of the real Doom + the Dance.

4) it will simply be taken apart and removed and then forgotten in a storage closet.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Corvinus85

[The Bard of Banefort]

Alicent seems to have let go of a lot of her anger and resentment towards Rhaenyra by EP8, perhaps because her slashing Rhaenyra with the dagger may have actually provided her with the catharsis she needed.

 

Did Jon kill Dany with the catspaw dagger? I didn’t think he did, but I could be wrong.

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

2) destroyed by accident by Aegon II because he fucks around it, on it

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by RumHam