Ukraine War: Poor put upon Russia… why will the world not just let it rape, kill, and steal toilets from Ukraine… in peace?

[butterweedstrover]

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

This needs a link. 
 

Read it yourself, Ukraine was much more dependent on Russia’s petrol economy. He outbid the west so the west armed far right militias.

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

This needs a link. 
 

His own words, he is worried about western support abating. He also is worried his people will force him to compromise (per Bakhmut). Go read.

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

It is an interesting way to argue.  Just throw out very dubious statements.

No country deserves to be sacrificed just so that another country survives. 
 

Countries deserve to fight to survive.

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

And you may actually underestimate your country.  It might actually be better than your very low opinion of it. 
 

There are only three countries I love: 

Iran, America, and Russia

5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I am glad you can at least accept that Russia used hard power between 2014-2022.

I wish you would do the same for the West in Ukraine.

[butterweedstrover]

10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You realize the Ruble is worthless now… right?

Ukraine doesn’t even have an economy anymore.

[Varysblackfyre321]

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Like Zelensky supporting Azov, C4, RS, etc.

So you get Prigo is a Nazi leading a Nazi militia.

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Hitler also refrained from complimenting Japan for seizing Singapore from the British. But sure, Putin supporting and protecting ethnic minorities makes him a fascist. 

No it’s the autocracy, the blood and soil rhetoric, and harkening back to imagined glories.

7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

know that is the main problem actual Russian Nazis in Ukraine have with him?

Nazis can and do purity test other Nazis.

though broadly, globally Nazi groups  tend to be pro-Putin because strong white autocrat who may occasionally give them or people they like money.

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Keep digging

Dig what?

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So you get Prigo is a Nazi leading a Nazi militia. 
 

He’s not. Actually he is more patriotic than Putin and takes care of his men regardless of race or creed.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No it’s the autocracy, the blood and soil rhetoric, and harkening back to imagined glories. 
 

Russia is an idea, not an ethnic state.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nazis can and do purity test other Nazis.

though broadly, globally Nazi groups  tend to be pro-Putin because strong white autocrat who may occasionally give them or people they like money. 
 

There are interviews with Nazi fighting in Donbas for eight years, they hate Putin. Same as those Russian liberators you support. 
 

The Nazis you speak of are western Nazis who have no idea who Putin is actually is, just what CNN or Fox News tells them.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Dig what?

You know.

[butterweedstrover]

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Pretty sure she’s real. 
 

Good, now learn who she is.

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

True and I’m glad you recognize there’s no significant evidence to say otherwise. 
 

Westerners openly funded the protests. We’re do you think the riot gear came from? 

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yep the person who’d become president was the next obvious candidate until he was replaced by a comedian. 
 

This is open history, everyone the west told them to hire they did. Zelensky was funded by the oligarchs

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What Nazis were going to destroy Russia? 
How exactly was this to be accomplished? 
 

Watch their interviews, they want to use Ukraine as a vehicle.

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It does. Hell at least with the Nazis they were harkening back to supposedly a direct mythological  linage of people who wouldn’t think them savages. Mussolini was actually Italian like he was in the area of what Rome would call part of its civilization. 
 

Mussolini is irrelevant, always was.

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But Russia???

Romans at their peak would wonder why distant savages are proffesiing such kinship with them. 

Rome was an idea, and the Hellenic half converted the Slavs. 
 

You could say the same for American and British which are Germanic tribesman

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

He’s not. Actually he is more patriotic than Putin

He is and Nazis tend to be big into professed patriotism.

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

and takes care of his men regardless of race or creed.

So long as that creed is nazism sure.

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

There are interviews with Nazi fighting in Donbas for eight years, they hate Putin.

Did I not just say Nazis purity test other Nazis?

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The Nazis you speak of are western Nazis who have no idea who Putin is actually is, just what CNN or Fox News tells them.

And Eastern European and Russian Nazis generally*

Though the western ones would be delighted listening to the Russia’s internal propaganda networks and media figures they pay.

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You know.

Nope.

Fascists tend to get along with a certain style of Islam that’s heavily reactionary because there’s not fundamentally much difference.

[butterweedstrover]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He is and Nazis tend to be big into professed patriotism. 
 

To a multi ethnic empire?

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So long as that creed is nazism sure. 
 

Multiethnic nazism isn’t a thing

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Did I not just say Nazis purity test other Nazis? 
 

No, they hate Putin for not being a Nazi

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And Eastern European and Russian Nazis generally* 

Well, the Russian Nazis are fighting and dying to overthrow Putin so you’re looking in the wrong.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Though the western ones would be delighted listening to the Russia’s internal propaganda networks and media figures they pay. 
 

Western Nazis are idiots.

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Nope.

Fascists tend to get along with a certain style of Islam that’s heavily reactionary because there’s not fundamentally much difference.

Putin destroyed Chechen extremists. But I don’t like Putin for being an oligarch with western inclinations, I much prefer Prigozhin or Lukashenko as the protecter of Rus.

[Varysblackfyre321]

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Good, now learn who she is.

I have.

Whats the most controversial thing she’s ever said?

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Westerners openly funded the protests.

There were tens of thousands of participants?Who was paid exactly? How much were they paid?

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

We’re do you think the riot gear came from? 

A person can’t buy riot gear without being funded by America?

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is open history, everyone the west told them to hire they did.

When?

What document disclose, or recording  or videos reveals such a thing.

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Zelensky was funded by the oligarchs

And they put their bets behind a popular comedian? Who preached peace with Russia?

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Watch their interviews, they want to use Ukraine as a vehicle.

Who? To do what?

To destroy Russia? Again how does this work out in your mind?

If it doesn’t work out in your mind why do you think it’s the goal of the west where they have the most brilliant military minds on their payroll?

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Mussolini is irrelevant, always was.

He’s relevant to show how silly you’re being.

29 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rome was an idea

No it was a real nation-state not some mythical far right woo woo spiritual bulls shit.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321
More question

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

13 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Good, now learn who she is.

Are you going to tell us all about Victoria Nuland’s magic cookies that caused the fall of Putin stooge Yanukovych (as opposed to Yanukovych ordering the shooting of EuroMaidan protesters ending in the deaths of more than a hundred Ukrainians… where he then fled to Russia rather than answer for his actions)?

Edited July 9, 2023 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Varysblackfyre321]

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Multiethnic nazism isn’t a thing

Tell that to all the non-white Nazis.

Though I should say a portion of Wagner are conscripts(murderers, rapists)  they’d plundered from prison . So it’s Not all ideological Nazis.

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, they hate Putin for not being a Nazi

Again Nazis purity test.

Though originally I called Russia fascist which is a bit more broad than Nazis eh lol?

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

the Russian Nazis are fighting and dying to overthrow Putin so you’re looking in the wrong.

Some are. Others like he’s based, like prigo.

31 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Putin destroyed Chechen extremists.

Even granting all those checen extremists were Nazis none were just people opposed to Russian autocracy—fascists will kill other fascists occasionally—nothing personal just business.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Zorral]

These three screens are insane, like a chatbot trained on russian tv.

Looking forward to returning to information and events wrt Ukraine and all the adjacent/adjunct subjects, such as -- has anyone learned anything concrete today about the so-called demotion and / or disappearance of the russian general(s)?  I haven't seen anything about this except from sources I don't view as reliable.

In the meantime -- 

The Wall Street Journal
8 hours ago
Captured Ukrainian Commanders Return Home From Turkey, Angering Russia

Ukraine’s president welcomed back five Ukrainian military commanders on Saturday who had been held in Turkey since a prisoner swap deal with Russia last year. The Kremlin said the release violated the terms of the exchange agreement.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/captured-ukrainian-commanders-return-home-from-turkey-angering-russia/vi-AA1dDc10?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=800febf91ccc419d82746b803a6287fa&ei=19

The video is very sweet.  Zelensky brought the freed prisoners back with him from Turkey and his visit with Erdogan.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Zorral

[kiko]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

and probably some wavering from Germany and France

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Not Jesus, the Romans. Romans destroyed a people and then assimilated them. 
 

The Roman church stole his message, and continued the banner of assimilation under the guise of Jesus. If Jesus was the serious banner of the west or the church there would only be poverty and decay, that is what goodness is rewarded. 
 

Instead we have imperialism and plenty. Russia is the other half of that equation.

“They make a desert and call it peace.’” 
-Tacitus

 

Those Romans?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

11 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

“They make a desert and call it peace.’” 
-Tacitus

 

Those Romans?

He appears to admire that philosophy.

:facepalm:

[Kalbear]

I am also curious - is the hypothesis put forward that Russia's unique culture will disappear if it stops being such a douchecanoe? If that's the case, is it also the case that Russia's unique culture will disappear unless people continue to try and invade it every 30-50 years? Or Russia has to lose approximately 5% of their population on a regular basis to war, famine, genocide or other calamity in order to preserve (checks notes) ballet?

[karaddin]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

 You can pull out a seat at the table even if the guy on the other side is refusing to sit in it, because one of his entourage might shoot him in the head at any moment and then sit in it themselves.

Yeah Erdogan is certainly giving off the impression he smells weakness, and this mixed messaging about Prigozhin isn't doing much to cover that up.

6 hours ago, horangi said:

4) But where you really lose me is that were the Chechens and Tuvans etc. to head out on their own, somehow the Russians in Moscow would suddenly lose their culture, stop eating Borscht, the Bolshoi ballerinas and figure skaters would give up their livelihoods, and  the citizens would drag their copies of Tolstoy and Tchaikovsky to St. Basils and burn it all in a pique of despondency?  I mean contrary to your statements, the Russian people would still exist, in a smaller Russia.  Those people would still have values and traditions and cuisines- the things we generally perceive make up culture.

 

2 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I am also curious - is the hypothesis put forward that Russia's unique culture will disappear if it stops being such a douchecanoe? If that's the case, is it also the case that Russia's unique culture will disappear unless people continue to try and invade it every 30-50 years? Or Russia has to lose approximately 5% of their population on a regular basis to war, famine, genocide or other calamity in order to preserve (checks notes) ballet?

If I actually believed the arguments being made here I'd think that the freedom to rape and murder their neighbours in the name of Empire is fundamental to Russia, and that if they can't do that to triumph over adversity then they're not Russia anymore.

Apparently I have a higher opinion of Russia than him though because I think it's both less fundamentally evil and less fragile than that.

The one that's really thrown me though is openly ridiculing Christ's own morality in favour of the brutal imperialism of expansionist Rome, but claiming the name Christianity. I'm an atheist and I'd still tell you to keep that name out of your mouth and use a name that actually describes what you mean.

[Erik of Hazelfield]

I must say I appreciate some of butterweedstrover’s posts, not because I agree with them, but because I find them fascinating. I have a hunch they actually do offer some insight into how the Russian mind works. The idea that Russia is an empire and needs to fight and dominate in order to keep existing as a nation is certainly interesting. If the Russians themselves believe this then it would explain a lot.

Anyway - what butterweedstrover gets wrong is “Western imperialism “. The desire to protect Ukraine doesn’t have anything to do with imperialism. It has several other reasons though:

1) Preservation of a world governed by international laws rather than military power. You solve political and territorial disputes through diplomacy, not warfare. That route leads only to pain and suffering. Europe knows this very well. 

2) Defence of a democracy versus a dictatorship. The “West” (if there is such a thing) likes democracy and considers it worth defending. Ukraine, for all its corruption, nazis (that do exist even if they’re not in charge) and myriad of other problems, does have a democratically elected parliament and president. 

3) A desire to weaken Russia. Yes, this is a reason for supporting Ukraine, but not for the reason you think. It comes from fear and weariness of the Russian threat. Finland, the Baltics, Poland and the Czech Republic are among the strongest supporters of Ukraine. Guess why? Because they were all relatively recently invaded by Russia or the Soviet Union. If we can support Ukraine, they can make the world a safer place for all of us. 

[Toth]

I've been following the last 8 pages of this nonsense with worried fascination. I guess we should be thankful for someone barging in and trying to give an alternate viewpoint. It's kind of boring when everyone can agree that murder is bad and someone comes and rationalizes why murder is good when it hits people he doesn't like.

Since this whole thing went through all kinds of confusing tangents and there were quite a lot of quite some forceful topic changes as to never get nailed down on one thing, let me try to sum up what my impression of your position is, @butterweedstrover:

- at the core you hate "the West" for being "weak", as it is in the grip of a "culture" you deride as inferior, I guess particularly in regards to democracy, personal liberty for marginalized groups and so on. The whole culture war stuff. Drag queens are turning your children gay, trans people invading toilet safe spaces and Disney is selling badly written Mary Sues.

- at the same time you see that same west, I guess particularly the US, as an incredibly strong Empire that is very successful and constantly expanding through sinister means and that for you justifies war and regime change to prevent a country from... having economic ties with the EU. Because a sovereign country deciding that they give a better deal than Russia's Eurasian union must mean that this country is both too stupid to realize that Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Belarus are somehow better off than Poland and the Baltics despite all data telling you the contrary, but also at the same time must be manipulated by those sinister western forces.

- which in your opinion is confirmed by the Euromaidan being some kind of CIA ploy and not just the result of Russia's desperate intervention at the end of a string of economic blackmailing as Ukraine started to slip away into the EU, with protests simply becoming far wider the more the government pushed back against it. That this thing was two democratically elected governments and two Russian invasions ago doesn't count, the dude Putin forced to walk back on his promise of EU integration fled the country, so all governments after that don't count as legitimate and that justifies invasion and regime change through Russia. Also that neither the US nor the EU really cared all that much for Ukraine counts either, because... it just doesn't.

- at the same time you try to deride Ukraine's cultural and historical distinctiveness altogether in an attempt to rationalize Russia's moving war goals. Since regime change failed, Russia walked back and annexed the territories they still occupied, where you feel the need to claim that the people there are Russian or want to be Russian anyway, despite previously also stating that Russia orchestrating the separatist movements in the Donbass was "doing it by the western playbook" with a cheeky snipe at the Euromaidan. So both were coups by a third party, but somehow protests against a government breaking its promises escalating to protests against the general state of corruption were unlawful meddling, but the separatist uprisings with all the Russian gear and support were justified because those people actually truly believed in that cause of tearing their country apart, instead of being some opportunistic stooges who saw themselves at the top of whatever new order Russia would establish there as they stormed municipal buildings, murdered democratic activists and suppressed their neighbors.

- you acknowledged that Putin's system is a dysfunctional kleptocracy where everyone outside Moscow and St. Petersburg lives in jarring poverty and nothing will be done to change that, but at the same time you applaud it as this last bulwark against western degeneracy, for at least they still have a strongman at the top who hits down hard on LGBTQ-rights, decriminalizes domestic violence and generally promotes a culture of hardasses where there is no place for weak pussy stuff. And that this whole thing is so fragile that... failing to invade a neighbor would mean it would all get destroyed, alongside hundred years old Russian cultural heritage that you bring up so that it doesn't only look like gloomy macho nonsense that... we in the west try to destroy at all costs, because that is our goal here and that's why we didn't do shit 2014, even expanding trade with Russia and now only give homeopathic doses of equipment to Ukraine that pretty much only turns the war around because the Russian military is doing just that badly. In any case, at the same time they need to win and defeat the degenerate west at all cost to expand their own empire or else all that precious macho culture would go down the drain.

- which is particularly odd, because while you clearly say it's all because of Putin's imperial ambitions, you still go out of the way to deride the Ukrainian government and defenders as Nazis, which is just... such a bizarre and weak argument the Russians make mostly for internal consumption. Like who cares what individual national guard units think, their attempt to make it a political movement failed utterly and even if not, hurling bombs on people usually wouldn't be treated as an adequate response to a government curtailing Russian media... in response to Russia invading and occupying your land.

- you acknowledge that the Russian army is raping and pillaging their way through Ukraine and even vaguely allude to Russian strategy involving lots of civilian casualties, but state that massacres are okay, since they aren't ordered from above, while at the same time bending backwards to make up excuses that Russian accuracy is just that dreadful and at the same time Ukraine is just accidentally shelling itself all the time. You know, I'm also of the opinion that Bucha wasn't really planned, but a result of that completely fucked up military culture Russia has, where top-down everyone abuses everyone downwards. At the same time the terror bombing in a desperate and petty attempt to break the spirit of Ukraine's civilians as well as the very much intentional establishment of FSB torture cellars and systematic murder of pro-Euromaidan civilians and journalists very much IS the Russian war strategy. As well as the relocation of people, kidnapping of children and change in schools and stuff is also a quite blatant attempt at russification. Something that... wouldn't be necessary if the people already were Russian or in favour of Russia, but oh well, gotta break some eggs to make an omelette or something and all that is justified anyway because it would expand the Russian empire and diminish the one of the west. Because Russian expansion through war and subjugation is good, while western expansion through trade deals is bad.

 

I must say, again, going through eight pages of all that, I'm saying something I rarely say: Who hurt you? Because all this... just reeks of an immensely insecure mind that desperately craves strength, even if perceived strength, and using it to look down on those you view as less pure and inferior. You need some serious introspection and look again where you want to stand. Because at it stands, pretty much all you write gives the impression that you are cartoonishly evil, that you would gleefully cheer for Hitler if you'd lived back in the days, and wouldn't even need much self-justification for it, because at least he'd hurt the people you despise.

Really, it's troubling that after these eight pages you decided to charge up on all the counterpoints and double down on the crazy instead of realizing that you have truly dug yourself deeper and deeper into a corner, defending the indefensible.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Toth

[3CityApache]

It is kinda fascinating to read his posts, a bit like watching big, hairy spider in your kitchen sink. But I mostly admire those of you guys who engage in a dispute with him. It's also fascinating to witness what being truly brain washed means in practice.

PS. I think Putin's efforts to support and protect minorities shine in LGBT+ section the most, he truly excells there.

Edited July 10, 2023 by 3CityApache

[butterweedstrover]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah Erdogan is certainly giving off the impression he smells weakness, and this mixed messaging about Prigozhin isn't doing much to cover that up.

 

If I actually believed the arguments being made here I'd think that the freedom to rape and murder their neighbours in the name of Empire is fundamental to Russia, and that if they can't do that to triumph over adversity then they're not Russia anymore.

Apparently I have a higher opinion of Russia than him though because I think it's both less fundamentally evil and less fragile than that.

The one that's really thrown me though is openly ridiculing Christ's own morality in favour of the brutal imperialism of expansionist Rome, but claiming the name Christianity. I'm an atheist and I'd still tell you to keep that name out of your mouth and use a name that actually describes what you mean.

 

7 hours ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I am also curious - is the hypothesis put forward that Russia's unique culture will disappear if it stops being such a douchecanoe? If that's the case, is it also the case that Russia's unique culture will disappear unless people continue to try and invade it every 30-50 years? Or Russia has to lose approximately 5% of their population on a regular basis to war, famine, genocide or other calamity in order to preserve (checks notes) ballet?

 

7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

He appears to admire that philosophy.

:facepalm:

 

7 hours ago, James Arryn said:

“They make a desert and call it peace.’” 
-Tacitus

 

Those Romans?

The biggest mistake we make here friends is that you all assume Russian control means rape. Russia doesn't want to rape anyone, let's stop being dramatic. There is no order from up high to rape woman, but to avoid civilian causalities and win over the people. 

As for the Romans, I am not claiming what I want, but what is. The Roman ideology usurped Christian themes, and it is the predecessor to your own beloved liberal 'democracy'. 

But until or unless you see that western democracies are imperialist and their intonations of 'freedom' are just a marketing phrases, well then we are stuck in the same place: Russia is uniquely evil and the west has no geopolitical strategy for domination. 

The carrot is nice, making people rich so that they follow you around is nice. You can control a cow by the whip, or by feeding it grass and keeping it comfortable in its cage. But these are questions of method, not morals. And the west does hold the whip when need be.