Israel - Hamas War V

[teej6]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

This afternoon, no warning, formations of fighter jets flew over us.  The noise was deafening. I was out when this took place.  It was a strange sight: those jets, jetting over the western part of the city, seemingly following the Hudson River Tide race, followed, o so slowly it seemed in comparison, by a couple of teeny seeming, helicopters, all against a beautiful, pristine, peaceful blue sky.

I didn’t see it, but I heard the sound. Was  it a drill? Imagine listening to this every day for the past two wks not knowing if the roof over your head is going to cave in. 

[Zorral]

15 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I didn’t see it, but I heard the sound. Was  it a drill? Imagine listening to this every day for the past two wks not knowing if the roof over your head is going to cave in. 

That's exactly what I thought at the time..  Have no idea what it was -- probably a drill/exercise, from the airforce base in NJ? Or from, I dunno, a carrier? (Do we still have those?)  Not the start of a mission, but perhaps a signal to the members of both sides (and their allies) who are such a large portion of our regional populations?

I sharply recalled the son of a New Mexico Chicano friend, who had just graduated from the airforce academy, with both bombers and surveillance.  He had just been deployed to the NJ airforce base when 9/11 happened.  He'd been flying a practice mission over Spain, when it came through his coms, what had happened, and was told not to return to the US.

"Suddenly, just like that, my job became real."

We saw him a few times after we started bombing.  He had become an entirely different person, and he was miserable, depressed, all the light, of which C had so much, had left him.  We met him one night with a colleague, a young woman, who oversaw the drone bombing missions, i.e. delivering death to men, women and children, from a bunker in the US.  They both were just shot.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Zorral

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The US was attacked once by a group nearly 7000 miles away. Israeli communities were massacred by a genocidal group less than 1 mile away that has been murdering Jews and firing thousands of rocketed into Israeli communities for nearly two decades as the elected gov of Palestine and for more than a decade before that.

So you agree that a few more days or weeks isn't going to make much a difference, right? I mean, they've been managing with this problem for nearly 2 decades now. 

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Revenge isn't what is driving the response, else there would be hundreds of thousands dead, and tortured and mutilated like Hamas did.

Yep! Or they might, say, decide to starve the entire population of 2.2 million people because of the actions of a few. Because depriving an entire civilian population of food is a very reasonable military response in the 21st century. 

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Uprooting the ability for Hamas to do this against is driving the response. This goes beyond Netanyahu. He is fucking done and nothing he does now will keep or put him back in power.

You might want to let him know that

[Werthead]

The Hamas terrorists decided it would be a good idea to wear bodycams during their rampage, quite a lot of footage from which has been recovered. It's gruesome stuff.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Werthead

[Bael's Bastard]

Just now, Werthead said:

The Hamas terrorists decided it would be a fantastic idea to wear bodycams during their rampage, quite a lot of footage from which has been recovered. It's gruesome stuff.

Jews are not holding our breath waiting for those who spent weeks saying reports about these atrocities were fabrications or exaggerations, including in these very threads, to admit their error and apologize.

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Jews are not holding our breath waiting for those who spent weeks saying reports about these atrocities were fabrications or exaggerations, including in these very threads, to admit their error and apologize.

So here's a suggestion for getting along on this board and in general: if you have a problem with something someone said or did, or you want to specifically have them revisit previous comments and apologize for them - actually talk to them. Instead of, ya know, just randomly waving your hands at a crowd of people and have them guess at who you may or may not be talking about. 

Because ya know what? There HAVE been fabrications or exaggerations about the atrocities. That did happen! People fucked up when reposting misinformation. There also has been fabrications and exaggerations about the scale and even the perpetrator of some of the bombings! That too happened!

So...maybe talk to those specific people. 

I personally have absolutely no interest in watching any body cam footage. My understanding is that it's horrible, that people absolutely delighted in the slaughter of regular people, and it's quite gruesome. It does not really challenge anything I knew or said previously, but I'm assuming that you're not talking about me and are talking about those Scary Others out there instead. Here, let's try. @GrimTuesday, in light of the body cam footage (either directly viewing it or reviewing reports on it) does this change your mind at all?

ETA: also, I'll point out that this is not the raw footage; this is a 45-minute 'best of' reel that Israel put together based on hundreds of hours of recordings. I think that's not the most transparent way Israel could do this and will likely not lead to a whole lot; those who think Israel is the good guy without flaw will trust it without reservation, and those inclined to think they're lying liars who lie will see this as selected editing and potentially question its veracity entirely. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Kalnak the Magnificent

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

So here's a suggestion for getting along on this board and in general: if you have a problem with something someone said or did, or you want to specifically have them revisit previous comments and apologize for them - actually talk to them. Instead of, ya know, just randomly waving your hands at a crowd of people and have them guess at who you may or may not be talking about. 

Because ya know what? There HAVE been fabrications or exaggerations about the atrocities. That did happen! People fucked up when reposting misinformation. There also has been fabrications and exaggerations about the scale and even the perpetrator of some of the bombings! That too happened!

So...maybe talk to those specific people. 

I personally have absolutely no interest in watching any body cam footage. My understanding is that it's horrible, that people absolutely delighted in the slaughter of regular people, and it's quite gruesome. It does not really challenge anything I knew or said previously, but I'm assuming that you're not talking about me and are talking about those Scary Others out there instead. Here, let's try. @GrimTuesday, in light of the body cam footage (either directly viewing it or reviewing reports on it) does this change your mind at all?

ETA: also, I'll point out that this is not the raw footage; this is a 45-minute 'best of' reel that Israel put together based on hundreds of hours of recordings. I think that's not the most transparent way Israel could do this and will likely not lead to a whole lot; those who think Israel is the good guy without flaw will trust it without reservation, and those inclined to think they're lying liars who lie will see this as selected editing and potentially question its veracity entirely. 

To put it simply, did the news about the videos that journalist were shown change my mind? No, because there was never a doubt in my mind that atrocities were committed by Hamas fighters, though I have questioned the legitimacy of specific claims that were presented with no independent confirmation, especially ones that feed into know tropes used to vilify Muslims. It also does not change my views on the conflict as a whole, because Israel remains an Apartheid state which requires violence in its maintenance and we shouldn't be surprised to see a certain level of inhumane blood lust when the oppressed have the opportunity to strike back. This of course only explains the actions of the Hamas terrorists, it does not excuse or justify it because there is no justification for crimes such as those that Hamas fighters committed.

As for the idea that Israel selectively edited it, we know that Israel is going to present the worst of the worst of it for propaganda (as always, I use this in a neutral way) purposes, that is just how these things work. As for the veracity aspect of things, anyone who is questioning about this is being silly because to deny it is to deny reality. These things happened, it is undeniable and to say otherwise is the same as the Israeli claims of "telegentically dead" Palestinian children. Of course we also know from first hand accounts that some who were held by Hamas were treated (relatively) humanely, or at least as humanely as one can when holding someone at gun point. The Israeli government is not going to promote that because they don't want to humanize the Palestinians in fact, I know of one instance where an interview has been actively censored and was removed, though a re-upload can be found here.

It remains incumbent on both sides to recognize the humanity of the other, but that can't happen until Israel ceases it's bombardment and doesn't commit to further escalation, and Hamas returns the hostages they took.

[House Balstroko]

Going forward, both sides need to find a way to compromise. 
 

Palestine:

- Strip Hamas of its political power and degrade its military. 

- Recognize Israel as a sovereign state 

- End all hostile activities towards Israel 

Israel:

- Hold Likud leadership accountable for inflammatory rhetoric 

- Work towards dismantling all settlements in the West Bank 

 

At the end of the day, Israel will compromise in order to create a more stable environment. While Israel has won  its engagements against the Arabs, it’s at a demographic and regional disadvantage. There’s no way around that fact. 
 

@Bironic Earlier on, you asked why no other Arab conflicts gain as much traction as the Israeli-Palestine one. The simple answer is that the land being contended is important to all 3 Abrahamic religions. As much as many would like to remove religion from the discourse, I don’t think it’s really possible here. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

tropes used to vilify Muslims

Yeah I’ll be honest the things people were saying we’re too far fetched hamas I didn’t think anyone should take much offense to for the most part.

I get the hesitance over the 40 beheaded claim. 

But An ultra reactionary terrorist raped a person or killed a kid or even baby isn’t that far fetched 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/21/2023 at 6:20 PM, kissdbyfire said:

You're right, of course. I guess I'm feeling really anxious about the hostages, that's gotta be just such a horrific situation for them. 

h

I think I really underestimated the current regime’s and Israeli military’s  bloodlust

 

[Ran]

The IDF has the job of executing the strategic goals that the government has set. Presently, the IDF has been told that their job is to eliminate Hamas. They have called up a huge deployment of reservists and made all sorts of preparations to that end, and now say they are ready to carry out that task. But you can't stay in operational readiness forever. There's a cost to that. The IDF thinks that soon is the optimal time to try and achieve the government's aims, and reasonably so -- they are ready, or so they feel.

They should go in now and occupy the largely-emptied north Gaza, personally. That'll put immense pressure on Hamas, as it shows a commitment to move forward with the operation. Even if they don't move beyond that point and the rest of the invasion is eventually called off, holding north Gaza for awhile will allow them to find and collapse parts of the tunnel network there, further setting back Hamas for the future.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ran

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

The IDF has the job of executing the strategic goals that the government has set

Idk if those goals need all the hostages to remain in hamas’s hands and die sounds like they need better goals.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Ran]

Or their moving in, as they suggest, will create pressure that will release the hostages faster. It's nakedly transparent that Hamas is trying to buy itself time by releasing hostages in dribs and drabs.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's nakedly transparent that Hamas is trying to buy itself time by releasing hostages in dribs and drabs.

 

It does kinda lend credence to their claim that Israel refused hostages outright.

[Relic]

10 hours ago, Zorral said:

 pristine, peaceful blue sky.

It's been like 400 years since the sky over NYC was pristine hahah

[Relic]

Save the Children, an agency that works around the world, estimates that 2,000 children have been killed in Gaza and the West Bank since Israel began bombing densely populated Gaza.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/24/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-war-tuesday-intl-hnk/index.html

Here is a link to what the agency is doing in Gaza. You can donate if you want. I have. 

https://www.savethechildren.net/what-we-do/emergencies/gaza-emergency 

[Argonath Diver]

11 hours ago, Zorral said:

This afternoon, no warning, formations of fighter jets flew over us.  The noise was deafening. I was out when this took place.  It was a strange sight: those jets, jetting over the western part of the city, seemingly following the Hudson River Tide race, followed, o so slowly it seemed in comparison, by a couple of teeny seeming, helicopters, all against a beautiful, pristine, peaceful blue sky.

I lived 9 wonderful years in that incredible city. I'm also back home these days, meaning a suburban town that happens to be directly under the flight approach path of Scott Air Force Base. Eventually you get used to colossal planes flying overhead, completely halting all outdoor conversation until it passes. It's wild, people at a BBQ just kind of stop interacting completely, everyone looks up at this metal hulk flying impossibly slowly only a few hundred feet overhead. Then it's passed out of eyesight and the roaring ceases, we all just kind of look back at each other and act like nothing at all happened.

Crazy to imagine what I see out here, only over Manhattan. 

[Fragile Bird]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Elections do matter, if this had been trump, Gaza would likely be a crater with direct USA insistence  and all the hostages all dead certainly.

Probably not. Probably some Saudi Prince would have sat down with him and explained why it was important to keep Palestinians pent up in Gaza, and then offered to buy 10 apartments in Trump buildings for 20 or 30 million each.

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, Relic said:

It's been like 400 years since the sky over NYC was pristine hahah

You forget the months of covid lockdown -- no cars, no planes, no trains, nothing.  Everything was shut down, from restaurants to offices to churches and synogogues (which the Orthodox, Hassids, etc. screamed bloody murder about -- including that this wasn't their country and they didn't to obey its rules -- and disobeyed and lost many many many to death from covid).  Only food and drugstores and health related venues were open.  Also serious curfew.

People don't seem to realize the first year of covid was very different here than in most parts of the country.

[Relic]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You forget the months of covid lockdown -- no cars, no planes, no trains, nothing.  Everything was shut down, from restaurants to offices to churches and synogogues (which the Orthodox, Hassids, etc. screamed bloody murder about -- including that this wasn't their country and they didn't to obey its rules -- and disobeyed and lost many many many to death from covid).  Only food and drugstores and health related venues were open.  Also serious curfew.

People don't seem to realize the first year of covid was very different here than in most parts of the country.

Ahh, I wasn't there for covid.