International events

[Tears of Lys]

I'd love to aim higher, but that's what we had.  I was just slightly taken aback that his death passed with such little comment.  Anyone who stands up to Putin is important.  

I guess we'll never know the circumstances of his death, whether it was a hunger strike gone over the top, lack of medical care, or even if they're outright lying.  

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tears of Lys said:

I guess we'll never know the circumstances of his death,

Probably not.

1 minute ago, Tears of Lys said:

whether it was a hunger strike gone over the top, lack of medical care, or even if they're outright lying.  

There's video of him on the day he died, he seemed fine. Iirc, he had a court hearing that day - or some sort of court appearance - and that's when the video was shot.

[kissdbyfire]

Actually the video is from the day before.

 

 

Edited February 19 by kissdbyfire

[Werthead]

It's very difficult to ascertain Navalny's real beliefs versus his PR, which always had an eye to at least partially appealing to Russian conservatives (i.e. most Russians, certainly most older ones, which given its demography was essential). So, sure, he argued for a stronger civil state and courts - something a lot of Russians, even conservative ones, grouse about as it allows corruption and incompetent to flourish - and various liberal-ish-for-Russia ideas, and better relations with other countries, but it's hard to tell if his nationalistic flourishes (lukewarm support for an independent Ukraine, confirming he would retain control of Crimea regardless) were genuine or for effect. He wasn't trying to project the image of a cuddly super-liberal in Russia itself, more the image of a guy who could be tough when needed to be, but also believed in a more accountable country to its people, something that does generally resonate well in Russia, a country that used to have a revolution if vodka supplies dropped below optimal for more than a week but has got out of the habit of doing that.

The outpouring of grief at his death may be overlooking some of his negative qualities a bit (the Ukrainians certainly aren't) but may also be driven by the fact he was someone who could mobilise the Russian street, had wide appeal, appeared to be a credible alternative to Putin and would have been a significant improvement over Putin even if he still wasn't ideal (perfect being the enemy of good here etc). Interesting to see how the opposition does now it has a martyr.

[kissdbyfire]

I can sort of understand using nationalist rhetoric to appeal to a portion of the electorate - sorta, and keeping in mind that maybe it was to appeal to these voters but maybe it was what he truly believed in. Exactly b/c practically anyone would be better than Putin. But his xenophobia and particularly his rabid islamophobia really bothered me an awful lot.

[Conflicting Thought]

Navalny was also extremely islamophobic no?

[The Anti-Targ]

When the voting public has to try to choose the least worst option for president / government in so many countries that tells you how phucked things are for the world.

[Kyoshi]

^because politicians have spent decades corrupting political structures to the point that someone like Jeremy Corbyn is "way too crazy oh my gosh who would vote for him?" The American lobby system will never not shock me. There's an interview (I'll try finding the link) in which a historian outlines how literally every American president since Carter IIRC, can be indicted for war crimes. The world is a truly scary place indeed.

[Altherion]

20 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interesting to see how the opposition does now it has a martyr.

They had plenty of martyrs before and it did not appear to do them any good so I doubt this case will be any different. Navalny was covered much more extensively in Western media, but there were plenty of politicians, journalists and activists who were simply killed throughout the past two decades. Here's an early example from 2006 and here's a later one from 2015; these are relatively famous ones, but you can find others for any year.

Russia has never valued human life even to the limited extent that Britain, France and Germany did and the contemporary version is even more divergent in this regard. With the exception of the people at the very top, the Russian government has no compunction regarding killing people and opposition figures are naturally not part of this exception.

[Werthead]

33 minutes ago, Altherion said:

They had plenty of martyrs before and it did not appear to do them any good so I doubt this case will be any different. Navalny was covered much more extensively in Western media, but there were plenty of politicians, journalists and activists who were simply killed throughout the past two decades. Here's an early example from 2006 and here's a later one from 2015; these are relatively famous ones, but you can find others for any year.

Russia has never valued human life even to the limited extent that Britain, France and Germany did and the contemporary version is even more divergent in this regard. With the exception of the people at the very top, the Russian government has no compunction regarding killing people and opposition figures are naturally not part of this exception.

I haven't seen any of these other deaths bringing people out on the streets of Russian cities to risk arrest to protest and pay their respects on the same scale.

It's not Tiananmen Square or anything remotely approaching that level, but it's a lot more than we've seen in Russia for some considerable time. 

[straits]

49 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Russia has never valued human life even to the limited extent that Britain, France and Germany did and the contemporary version is even more divergent in this regard. With the exception of the people at the very top, the Russian government has no compunction regarding killing people and opposition figures are naturally not part of this exception.

I understand that you are referring to the post-WW2 period, but France does not belong in that sentence.

[The Anti-Targ]

42 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I haven't seen any of these other deaths bringing people out on the streets of Russian cities to risk arrest to protest and pay their respects on the same scale.

It's not Tiananmen Square or anything remotely approaching that level, but it's a lot more than we've seen in Russia for some considerable time. 

Speaking of protest

An interesting video with quite sinister implications if even some of it is true.

 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Speaking of protest

An interesting video with quite sinister implications if even some of it is true.

I think that primarily applies to western and democratic approaches to protest.

Russia, as said previously, is a brittle country, more brittle than I think was expected. I remember at the start of the conflict people suggesting it would take five years before we saw a mutiny against Putin, but it ended up taking eighteen months, and again much faster than expected before we started seeing widespread rioting and dissent in the provinces against the central government.

Russia's government also normalises the use of violence against enemies of the state, and even people who aren't really enemies of the state but just mildly inconvenient. This is effective in some respects, but it also normalises the idea of the use of violence against the state itself: if your protest may end in your death, then you might as well load for bear and be prepared to dish it out yourself, hence the reported assassination attempts on Putin (of varying degrees of credibility and competence) and various members of the regime. If you create a state where executive power is only enforced through fear, death and destruction, you have to be prepared for public dissent to be shown through the same mechanisms.

The question is if all of this can reach critical mass so that something effective happens: that could happen almost overnight, as with Prigozhin's Fury Road drive on Moscow, or it might now take many years to come together, long after this immediate conflict is over.

[Rippounet]

57 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

An interesting video with quite sinister implications if even some of it is true.

Of course it's true.

[The Anti-Targ]

While I was watching that video I reflected on the weeks long anti-vax, anti-mandate occupation of Parliament grounds here in 2022. In some ways it marked the beginning of the end for the current government (though it was mostly inflation), so some people might argue that protest was effective and many at the protest would say they achieved what they wanted by helping to get rid of the govt. But really the protest only changed the govt, it did not change the political status quo.

We have a new govt, but they continue to shit on the small folk and look after the 1%, including big pharma which was the pretext for what the parliament occupation was all about. If the occupation actually was about the real harms that big pharma has been doing for decades I would have been sympathetic towards the occupation, but vaccines are one of the few things big pharma does that I'm yet to see any serious downsides. Instead it was  about sheep dying because someone who was COVID vaccinated stood next to it and other nonsense.

[karaddin]

Big pharma does a hell of a lot of good, the inability to see that is a major flaw of many on the left. And it's not just vaccines, even the much maligned painkillers are vitally important to many. 

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Big pharma does a hell of a lot of good, the inability to see that is a major flaw of many on the left. And it's not just vaccines, even the much maligned painkillers are vitally important to many. 

Vaccines are probably the greatest achievement in human history.  The anti-vax movement is just baffling and sad. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Big pharma does a hell of a lot of good, the inability to see that is a major flaw of many on the left. And it's not just vaccines, even the much maligned painkillers are vitally important to many. 

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the left has gone into this strange group think territory where anything that isn't perfect for them is viewed as bad. And it's getting worse everyday which sucks for someone like myself who considers themself to be a pragmatic liberal. 

[Rippounet]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

Big pharma does a hell of a lot of good, the inability to see that is a major flaw of many on the left. And it's not just vaccines, even the much maligned painkillers are vitally important to many. 

You're confusing medical research with Big pharma.

To thank Big pharma for vaccines is like thanking the GAFAM for the internet: completely deluded.

3 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

I hate to keep beating this drum, but the left has gone into this strange group think territory where anything that isn't perfect for them is viewed as bad. And it's getting worse everyday which sucks for someone like myself who considers themself to be a pragmatic liberal. 

I hate to have to break it to you, but climate change means "pragmatic liberal" is now an oxymoron.

[Zorral]

32 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

You're confusing medical research with Big pharma.

To thank Big pharma for vaccines is like thanking the GAFAM for the internet: completely deluded.

Also -- funded by the government, Our Money, not Big Pharma.