Marvel: The Echo of Profitability

[Jaxom 1974]

3/5 episodes in and Echo still holds up. Disney, at the moment, seems to maybe found a level of footing on the idea of the "street level show" that goes alittle harder...they've shown that having Daredevil appear in She-Hulk, and playing to that show's humor, can't and shouldn't set race from the character being serious. I think Echo is giving Hawkeye some better footing as well, as a show that straddles the street level with the bigger hero elements. 

If they can stick the landing on Echo, and have the Daredevil show be done I'm the same vein (or go further), then it's all good. 

[sifth]

Did not like episode 2 of Echo, nearly as much as the first one. It just has that MCU cleanness to it. That whole train sequence I could tell was done with CGI and green screens. They shot it at night to hide a lot of it, which was a smart move, but I could still tell it was fake and took me right out of the show, especially when compared to DD, where everything felt so real.

[Werthead]

Marvel has added the entire Netflix roster to its official MCU timeline, thereby finally canonising the whole run.

[IFR]

@Heartofice et al

Quote

I'd say that cultural impact is indicative that a movie has had some sort of resonance with audiences, outside of the theatre. A movie would need to be able to stick in a persons head long enough for them to talk about it outside, to think about it, to imitate it, to go out and buy merch. 

That in of itself is a certain quality, and generally movies have to be pretty good to have that impact. Bland movies are labelled as 'forgettable' for a reason. You might rag on Star Wars, but the OT has so many scenes an moments that have been endlessly parodied and copied, they have become utterly recognisable (a real problem for Zach Snyder!) The cultural impact of those movies was monumental, and its mainly because they are good at what they do. 

The same could be said for some of the MCU, and maybe why the same is not true of later MCU (is anyone going around quoting Quantumania or rushing to get an Eternals T-shirt?)

The reason Avatar had so little cultural impact is because the movies are forgettable fluff, they are just a vehicle for taking you on a flashy ride, little else. Thats fine, but it doesn't make them good movies.

Associating resonance with quality I think is misleading. First of all, quality is a completely subjective and personal assessment, so what strikes one as quality could strike another as a lack of quality, with both assessments being valid to the respective individual. Trying to assert a "universal" quality metric is a debate that cannot be resolved.

Secondly, I don't think that it's necessarily the value of the story itself that has to resonate in order to achieve "cultural impact". Most people recognize that franchises like Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, Saw, Resident Evil, etc. are mindless movies that aren't particularly good. But they have cultural impact, and I would argue that it's because elements of those stories resonate with the public, not necessarily the story itself. The story of whatever generic Saw movie is not going to be impactful, but its particular brand of horror concept may appeal to people and thus lend itself to memetic propagation (in the Dawkins sense).

Avatar may not have these specific resonanting elements. But certainly both movies of the franchise earned their way to the top earning movies of all time because people watched them, enjoyed the experience, and watched them again. And again. That in itself is an undeniable metric that those individuals found quality in those movies, especially considering their length.

As for the assertion that the Avatar movies are forgettable fluff, once again this is an individual statement. I don't regard the movies as high art, but I remember them distinctly, and I'm not alone. I can hardly recall any Marvel scenes because in my viewing experience they're generic, amorphous blobs of CG absurdity and bad jokes, safely packaged for Mormon family consumption. Even Echo, with its ramped up violence, doesn't seem to change the template (now a 6.8 on imdb).

I feel the same about the Star Wars franchise. I do actually like some of the original trilogy. It's very, very far from high art, but some of it is pretty entertaining. The closest thing to high art Star Wars has produced is Andor, which thus far is excellent. The rest of Star Wars I consider an intellectual void, uncreative effluvium belched out into a trough for the indiscriminating consumer to enjoy.

Edited January 11, 2024 by IFR

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

22 minutes ago, IFR said:

 

I feel the same about the Star Wars franchise. I do actually like some of the original trilogy. It's very, very far from high art, but some of it is pretty entertaining. The closest thing to high art Star Wars has produced is Andor, which thus far is excellent. The rest of Star Wars I consider an intellectual void, uncreative effluvium belched out into a trough for the indiscriminate consumer to enjoy.

Ya but most of the rest of Star Wars is fun to watch atleast than the so called high art of Andor.

[IFR]

41 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Ya but most of the rest of Star Wars is fun to watch atleast than the so called high art of Andor.

For you maybe. I cannot watch most of Star Wars because it's painfully bad. Watching it is such a chore that my body actually mutinies and I develop painful headaches. I've had moments where I'm procrastinating homework and I have a friend suggest streaming a Star Wars show, and pretty soon I'll pull out my phone and I'll be reading one of my textbooks because that is more entertaining.

I thoroughly enjoyed Andor.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

For you maybe. I cannot watch most of Star Wars because it's painfully bad. Watching it is such a chore that my body actually mutinies and I develop painful headaches. I've had moments where I'm procrastinating homework and I have a friend suggest streaming a Star Wars show, and pretty soon I'll pull out my phone and I'll be reading one of my textbooks because that is more entertaining.

I thoroughly enjoyed Andor.

Talking about episodes 1-6

[Corvinus85]

Echo faltered in the middle with a weirdly directed episode but bounced back at the end. Reading about the comics character, I think the show managed to create a good origin story for her abilities, and it's good they went this route. The length of the show was about the right length. Maybe a 6th episode could have helped flesh out some of the side characters like her family, but even so, the pacing was good.

Kingpin was a bit toned down, though. They could have made this show much more tragic and terrifying if they wanted to. 

 

[IFR]

32 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

Talking about episodes 1-6

All right? I'm talking about all of Andor, including those episodes. I enjoyed the whole season.

It was a bit of a slow burn at the start, but I didn't find that at all off-putting. I welcomed it, in fact, as it distinguished itself from the rest of the franchise with this approach. And some of my favorite shows begin at an unhurried pace. To list a few examples: The Wire, House of Cards (British version), I, Claudius, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy and Smiley's People, Dark, The Expanse. These aren't all of my favorite shows, but I think they have the slowest beginnings.

[Jaxom 1974]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

Kingpin was a bit toned down, though. They could have made this show much more tragic and terrifying if they wanted to. 

 

I've never actually watched Daredevil on Netflix, so can't speak to the effectiveness of D'Onofrio there specifically. I did read an article about Echo that he spoke about trying to bring a touch of the family man aspect to what he did on the Netflix show, but so maintaining the menace of the character. I thought that was particularly effective in episode 4 whet he sits at the table to have "dinner " with Maya. The worry she expressed in her body language, coupled with his seeming patience with her, made for a nice, tense scene...

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I've never actually watched Daredevil on Netflix, so can't speak to the effectiveness of D'Onofrio there specifically. I did read an article about Echo that he spoke about trying to bring a touch of the family man aspect to what he did on the Netflix show, but so maintaining the menace of the character. I thought that was particularly effective in episode 4 whet he sits at the table to have "dinner " with Maya. The worry she expressed in her body language, coupled with his seeming patience with her, made for a nice, tense scene...

Minor spoiler about his unhinged viciousness 

Spoiler

He decapitates a man by turning his head into pudding with a car door. 

 

[sifth]

I enjoyed episode 1, but didn't enjoy the other 4 nearly as much and felt some of them to be rather boring. Truth be told, it was all down hill the moment I saw that CGI train in episode 2. They lured me in, with that first episode, which had grounded action, that reminded me of Daredevil and the Punisher, but all of that mystical stuff and stupid use of CGI reminded me, that I was watching a Disney property, in episode 2 and beyond.

Truth be told, all the scenes with Maya and the King Pin, I loved and all the scenes with her interacting with the rest of the cast I found boring.

[Martell Spy]

Great finale. One ep was a bit muddled, but liked much of the season. Great use of the setting. Much better use of Kingpin than in Hawkeye. My main complaint would be DD was almost not in this, it was just a quick cameo. His inclusion was definitely oversold.

[DaveSumm]

I’ve only seen the first episode but FUCK I love seeing Daredevil again. I don’t really know why, something about that combination of abilities and the blindness and how Cox plays it, he’s just so freaking cool. God I hope Born Again is good.

[Werthead]

Only on Episode 2 but my main takeaway is that this feels like Reservation Dogs Season 4. I think I've spotted six actors from that show so far recurring in this, Devery Jacobs having the highest profile. It's amusing having seen RD make a big deal of her character being 18 in the final season and Echo making a big deal of her and Maya's characters being 30-ish, and the two seasons were filmed almost one after the other.

[SpaceChampion]

I hope this is true. 

 

[polishgenius]

I'm glad but also someone who isn't Marvel needs to give Deborah Ann Woll a really juicy star role that makes use of the fact that she can act like this:
 

 

 

 

I could see her as a Bond villain. Though it'd be nice to make a new new charismatic character.

Edited January 13, 2024 by polishgenius

[mormont]

So I binged this last night, which is something I've not done with a series for a while but it's easy here. I really did like it, though I have some criticisms.

Thoughts:

- This is not really a DD side series in the way Punisher was to start with, despite Kingpin and DD being in it. The feel is similar but also quite Disney-Marvel in places.

- After this and the Marvels, Feige might want to ask the marketing department to come up with a new tactic and depart from 'hey, remember this other property?'

- I've heard the series is patched together from a longer version and overall it does feel like that. In particular, I will be astonished if there aren't a number of Devery Jacobs' scenes that were cut, because her character makes no real sense if there aren't. But also, another major character clearly should be in the flashbacks but just turns up in the modern day with no context. The plot seems mostly intact? but I think there are scenes missing, without a doubt.

- Half the first episode is introduction with limited new material. I thought Spotlight was supposed to be 'you don't need to catch up'?

- Not only the Choctaw background, but setting virtually the whole thing in Echo's home town, gives the series a very distinct feel for place and is helpful in giving it an identity. I really liked all of that.

- The mid credit scene is a swerve tonally and feels wedged in.

- Some great performances here. Alaqua Cox is good and of course D'Onofrio is great, but I really enjoyed Chaske Spencer and Tantoo Cardinal, and Graham Greene is a treasure.

- The main story beat, of Echo finding her identity with her roots rather than the powerful white man who's basically been abusing and gaslighting her since she was a child, isn't original and isn't subtle but it's strong and pulled off well.

- Fair warning, some of you may be disappointed at the lack of action scenes. I was expecting more fights to be honest.

 

Overall it's not the best thing Marvel have done, for sure, but it's solid and fun.

[hauberk]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:58 AM, mormont said:

- Some great performances here. Alaqua Cox is good and of course D'Onofrio is great, but I really enjoyed Chaske Spencer and Tantoo Cardinal, and Graham Greene is a treasure.

QFT.  

[Werthead]

Having watched 4 out of 5 episodes, yup, it's pretty good but not outstanding. Agreed on Devery Jacobs feeling weirdly underused: she has profile from Reservation Dogs and she's also I think the only person in the title sequence apart from Echo, Henry and Kingpin but has far less screen time than any of them.

It has MCU-ish feels but a lot of the time it doesn't really feel part of the MCU, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Way more actual location filming than some of their recent stuff, which is refreshing.