US Politics: A democratic election Prospect Theory and practice

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Old thread past page 20.

New title a bit convoluted to honour the late Daniel Kahneman.

[Martell Spy]

John Eastman, architect of Trump’s 2020 election plot, should be disbarred, judge rules
“The most severe available professional sanction is warranted to protect the public,” Judge Yvette Roland wrote.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/27/john-eastman-disbarred-00149468

Quote

 

A California judge on Wednesday recommended the disbarment of John Eastman, calling to revoke the law license of one of former President Donald Trump’s top allies in his failed last-ditch gambit to subvert the 2020 election.

Judge Yvette Roland, who presided over months of testimony and argument about the basis of Eastman’s fringe legal theories, ruled that the veteran conservative attorney violated ethics rules — and even potentially criminal law — when he advanced Trump’s efforts to overturn the election results based on weak or discredited claims of fraud.

 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

@Ser Scot A Ellison

Quote

 It really bothers me when people of my faith, or any faith, try to tell an atheist that they are “in fact religious…”

Well that begs a question, do you view Nazism in Germany as a religion? Or in general similar systems that have overlaps with a loose understanding of what could be a religion? Not saying I necessarily do, but cults also have a lot of religious tendencies even if they do believe in a higher power that isn't human while rejecting traditional understandings of how god or gods work.  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

Obviously atheism isn't a religion, but most people who call themselves atheists do espouse a particular philosophy on the world, on knowledge, and on human living. I eventually became dissatisfied with the word for this reason: why emphasize what you don't believe rather than what you do believe? 

Of course, saying "I subscribe to philosophical naturalism, empirical skepticism, and some soft version of secular humanism" doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.

But I've come to accept that thorniness as a feature rather than a bug. It invites discussion with those who are open to discussion, and it denies an easy label for those who want a spat with an enemy tribe.

[Relic]

43 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

 why emphasize what you don't believe rather than what you do believe? 

We don't believe in nothing , Lebowski. Nothing.

The only reason I even bother calling myself an atheist is due to how widespread religion is, globally. It's weird that I have to label what I believe, when I basically have zero clue wtf this life is, or means, and why.

Edited March 28 by Relic

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Relic said:

The only reason I even bother calling myself an atheist is due to how widespread religion is, globally.

Yeah I think it's important for those that hold atheistic beliefs proudly identify as such.  Especially in the US - and to bring this back to US politics - only 4% of Americans identify as atheist, a much smaller percentage than most other western democracies.  This is despite the fact that 22 percent of the electorate reported no religious affiliation in the 2020 exit polls.

Plainly, there's some disconnect there.  And as @polishgenius alluded to, the Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher's of the world don't help.  It still fascinates me that more Americans report they are willing to vote for a Muslim than an atheist. 

I don't identify as atheist because that's simply not what I believe - or at least it indicates a surety of belief that I don't share.  But if I did, I definitely would not be ashamed in order to try to shift this very apparent stigma.

[Phylum of Alexandria]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

I don't identify as atheist because that's simply not what I believe - or at least it indicates a surety of belief that I don't share.  But if I did, I definitely would not be ashamed in order to try to shift this very apparent stigma.

The stigma is certainly there, and if people like the label, they shouldn't fear using it. I just find it inadequate, and would rather have a conversation about what I believe, what I don't, and what I have no idea about.

 

[Ormond]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think it's important for those that hold atheistic beliefs proudly identify as such.  Especially in the US - and to bring this back to US politics - only 4% of Americans identify as atheist, a much smaller percentage than most other western democracies.  This is despite the fact that 22 percent of the electorate reported no religious affiliation in the 2020 exit polls.

Plainly, there's some disconnect there.  And as @polishgenius alluded to, the Richard Dawkins and Bill Maher's of the world don't help.  It still fascinates me that more Americans report they are willing to vote for a Muslim than an atheist. 

I don't identify as atheist because that's simply not what I believe - or at least it indicates a surety of belief that I don't share.  But if I did, I definitely would not be ashamed in order to try to shift this very apparent stigma.

I think it's fine for atheists to declare themselves as such.

But I do not think saying you "have no religious affiliation" in an exit poll means that one is an atheist. I think it simply means that one does not identify as being a member of a particular religious group or congregation. Not only would the "no religious affiliation" people include most who identify as "agnostic" rather than "atheist", but depending on exactly how the question was worded and what alternatives were given, it could include people who have strong religious beliefs but who do not belong to or attend a church or other religious organization.  And there are now millions of such people in the USA -- many people who will claim to be "evangelical Christians" never attend church -- and those people are even more likely to hold "Christian nationalist" views than self-identifed "Evangelicals" who do attend church.  And there of course would also be many Americans who have vague "New Agey" or "cafeteria" religious beliefs who would say they have "no religious affilication" while still saying they "believe in God."

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Ormond said:

But I do not think saying you "have no religious affiliation" in an exit poll means that one is an atheist.

To be clear, I don't either.  But I strongly suspect the percentage* would be much higher - perhaps up to half - if there wasn't said stigma attached to the term.  And btw, about the same amount (i.e. very low) percentage of Americans identify as agnostic.

Edit:  *I mean the percentage within that 22 percent that reports no religious affiliation.  Thought that was clear but just in case cuz, ya know, the internet.

Edited March 28 by DMC

[Kalbear]

The scientist in me prefers agnostic to atheist.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The scientist in me prefers agnostic to atheist.

Agreed.

[Darzin]

Because of the stigma a lot of  pollsters use none these days as it gets a much higher result.

Agnostic is probably the word that best describes me, or pantheist if you really want to get into it, but I usually give the answer Deist when asked by religious people. Because if you say Atheist or Agnostic they go into long philosophic arguments about a Platonic first mover God when what they mean is God says "you can't eat pork" or God says "the Gays can't marry" the question of, which God? is much more interesting to me then is there a God so I try to steer the conversation there.

I  have had the police in rural China refuse to believe I wasn't religious because I was white. Every few months they'd stop by and tell me not to spread missionary materials or preach "my" region to my students. I'd tell them it wasn't my religion they'd say ok and be back with the same reminders after three months. 

Edited March 28 by Darzin

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

@Ser Scot A Ellison

Well that begs a question, do you view Nazism in Germany as a religion? Or in general similar systems that have overlaps with a loose understanding of what could be a religion? Not saying I necessarily do, but cults also have a lot of religious tendencies even if they do believe in a higher power that isn't human while rejecting traditional understandings of how god or gods work.  

That’s a somewhat different situation.  People adding cult like religious aspects to various philosophies happens.  That in no way justifies a person of faith insisting that atheism (the antithesis of holding religious beliefs…) is “in fact” a religious belief.  

I maintain that is demeaning, insulting, and ridiculous.  Believers do not get to determine what non-believers “really believe”.  

Edited March 28 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[Zorral]

Salvage Team for Baltimore’s Destroyed Bridge Set to Begin a $2 Billion Rebuild

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-03-28/supply-chain-latest-baltimore-s-destroyed-bridge
 

Quote

 

A Florida salvage firm that helped contain the Deepwater Horizon oil spill is heading to Baltimore to kickstart the cleanup effort involving the damaged container ship and the destroyed Key Bridge as officials scramble to reopen the city’s port.

Resolve Marine has already begun mobilizing resources to re-float and remove the ship that smashed into the Francis Scott Key Bridge, according to US Coast Guard Vice Admiral Peter Gautier.

“The Coast Guard’s highest priority now is restoring the waterway for shipping, stabilizing the motor vessel Dali and removing it,” Gautier said during a White House press conference.

Federal officials told Maryland lawmakers that replacing the bridge and the cleanup would cost at least $2 billion, Bloomberg Government is reporting.

Insurance payouts could be among the largest ever in marine insurance, Lloyd’s of London Chief Executive Officer John Neal said in an interview.

Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said she expects insurers’ payouts to help cover some of the costs of rebuilding.

The salvage team is going to need some of the maritime industry’s biggest heavy-lift cranes and barges to haul away the steel that’ll require divers and other specialists to cut up. The assets and expertise needed will likely lead to a international effort given the scale of the project.

Jim Monkmeyer, president of transportation at DHL Supply Chain, said he’s hearing the port could reopen in May, putting the timetable for clearing at least a path for ships to transit at about six weeks. Knowing how long that’ll take is a key piece of information as shippers and carriers plan for alternative routes.

Rebuilding the bridge might take a year depending on what sections on either end are still intact after all the debris is removed, creating an extended strain on regional trucking that’ll require longer lead times and lead to possibly higher freight rates.

The automakers involved are assessing their options.

Mercedes-Benz says it has successfully adapted its supply routes.

Pablo Di Si, Volkswagen North America CEO, said the disaster won’t have a big impact on its operations near the port because its facilities are located on the eastern side of the collapsed bridge where the river is still navigable. “Obviously we’re going to have some disruption because of the trucks, but it’s not going to be as disruptive as some of the other automakers,” he said in the Bloomberg interview.

Container liners including Cosco, Evergreen and CMA CGM declared force majeure, leaving cargo owners responsible for picking up their goods that are being dropped off at alternate ports, according to Bloomberg Intelligence.

The closure is threatening the livelihoods of thousands of workers, while a dozen large ships are stuck inside Baltimore’s harbor and trade is being rerouted to other ports.

 

 

[Phylum of Alexandria]

25 minutes ago, Darzin said:

Because if you say Atheist or Agnostic they go into long philosophic arguments about a Platonic first mover God when what they mean is God say "you can't eat pork" or God says "the Gays can't marry" the question of, which God? is much more interesting to me then is there a God so I try to steer the conversation there.

What people mean by "God" and even "believe" often go undefined in these arguments. And they're a lot harder to unpack than people often think. Once you wave away the authoritarian fundie nonsense, at least.

I can't say for sure, but I imagine that my worldview is not really all that different from a believer like @Ser Scot A Ellison. It seems to be more how we lean, and maybe more importantly what communities we join and what traditions we observe.

[LongRider]

27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Believers do not get to determine what non-believers “really believe”.  

Preach it brother!  I myself don't believe in the supernatural, which means gods, deities, demons and other supernatural types.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

That’s a somewhat different situation.  People adding cult like religious aspects to various philosophies happens.  That in no way justifies a person of faith insisting that atheism (the antithesis of holding religious beliefs…) is “in fact” a religious belief.  

I maintain that is demeaning, insulting, and ridiculous.  Believers do not get to determine what non-believers “really believe”.  

But therein lies the rub, you can both be an atheist in the technical sense and buy into a cult that behaves with similar tendencies of religion. And then there is Buddhism, one of the largest religions in the world that doesn't recognize a deity. A Buddhist can both be described as an atheist and religious at the same time. 

57 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The scientist in me prefers agnostic to atheist.

I generally think agnosticism should be the preferred path. Atheism also makes a claim that really can't be proven. I have no problem saying manmade gods are not real, but we still don't know if there is a deity or deities and if there are they problem exist outside of the realm of our understanding. And in that case it's probably best not to worry too much about it/them. Positive spirituality is probably more useful.  

[LongRider]

Interesting article about the decline in religious beliefs and participation in the US.   The link goes to an Washington Post article saved at archive.today.com

Americans who’ve given up religion often point to anti-LGBTQ+ teachings - The Washington Post (archive.is)

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Listening to the GA hearing. This is why I find so many lawyers to be gross. Trump's team is despicable. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

25 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

. And then there is Buddhism, one of the largest religions in the world that doesn't recognize a deity. 

That's not so simple either.  Some sects do recognize a bunch of deities.