Israel-Hamas war 3

[Heartofice]

Who would be a political cartoonist in this age? It seems everything you do is up for misinterpretation and you open yourself to being hounded out of your job at any moment. Bell’s cartoons I’ve always found to be pretty mean spirited, which comes with the territory, but I’ll generally give people the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, cartoonists seem to have been replaced by people who can pump out a meme on the internet in seconds, so I’m surprised anyone is still doing the job. 

[Relic]

6 minutes ago, mormont said:

'Pound of flesh' wasn't before anyone's time (at least nobody here): it's from Shakespeare and is still in wide currency as a saying. 

Sure, ive heard the phrase but had no clue about its negative connotations. 

[Craving Peaches]

Still no sign of any aid getting in. The Israeli ambassador to the UK flat-out denies there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

I doubt she is that ill-informed, as the UN and WHO have been very clear on what the situation in Gaza is like, therefore, logic suggests she is lying. Watch as she tries to change the subject when about to be confronted with evidence that there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Also, all Palestinians get lumped in with the rest of Hamas/Nazis.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Ran]

As the US has shown in the past, the quality of ambassadors can be a very mixed bag. Tzipi Hotovely is the counter party to Hamas -- she has repeatedly argued for the formation of Greater Israel, on religious grounds. She's kind of the David Friedman of the situation.

She's a bad representative for Israel, because she's so obviously dishonest. Bad look for Israel to have such an ambassador, but it's not necessarily the case that she gives us any great insight until official views, as ambassadors around the world often end up getting off message.

Iran's foreign ministry and UN ambassador have similarly been putting out contradictory statements about Iran's intentions.

[dbergkvist]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

You already know the answer to this question, as we've heard it and will hear it over and over when it comes to civilian death in Gaza. "It's Hamas' fault, blame Hamas"

But Hebron isn't even located in Gaza. It's in the West bank, so blaming Hamas would require even more gymnastics.

[Ran]

Israel has made a policy of monitoring social media as a means of detecting and stopping possible violence, and apparently they've kicked up that initiative in relation to pro-Hamas urges to violence/incitements to hatred.  Does not seem beyond the pale to suppose a school with a lot of younger people will have individuals who would post angrily and say things they probably shouldn't.

That's just a guess as to why an art school may have been raided.

 

 

[Craving Peaches]

Israeli minister says 'Losing land is price Arabs understand' according to Al Jazeera.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/16/israel-hamas-war-live-iran-warns-resistance-front-may-attack

So is he suggesting they annex the north part of Gaza and leave everyone crammed in the south?

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Sure, ive heard the phrase but had no clue about its negative connotations. 

Yeah you'd need to know the play (Merchant of Venice) to really get it. Its the terrible no good horrible Jewish character Shylock that's trying to extract his pound of flesh from the poor noble main character that's an absolute asshole to him. Its basically every negative stereotype of Jews up to and including the kitchen sink. 

The climax of the play is them outwitting the dastardly Shylock with everyone laughing at him essentially. Its been a long time since I covered it in school but even at like 15 I was all 'this....this is pretty out there'.

[The hairy bear]

53 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yeah you'd need to know the play (Merchant of Venice) to really get it.

There's still debate among scholars on whether Shylock was intended as an antisemitic caricature. And even if Shakespeare played with common Jewish stereotypes, and made Shylock an horrible man, his Christian comrades in the play are just as petty, dishonest and despicable as him (if not more).

[mormont]

'Intended as' cuts no ice with me when the effect of the portrayal is, and has been for hundreds of years, to be one of the most widely known anti-Semitic caricatures to the point where the very name of the character is used as an anti-Semitic slur.

[karaddin]

I think the bard is a long way beyond caring about what we think lol, to the point I don't even view arguing about the intent as relevant. Its just the effect as mormont said.

[The hairy bear]

Fair enough. I'd say that the "effect" is not set in stone, though. A character's perception can change through times, and there's already an established trend of portraying Shylock as a sympathetic character. There was a time where Wagner's music was seen as nazi propaganda, and in some places it's still associated with it.

But let's not derail the thread and go back to topic, dreadful as it is.

[Relic]

https://pca.st/episode/2186ffb9-c022-496a-a327-845d83afc8fb

 

Found this podcast on the situation to be quite eloquent.

Description -

 

"This is our second episode on the war between Israel and Hamas. Today’s guest is Peter Beinart. I don’t know another Jewish author who writes and speaks with as much eloquent anguish over this issue. Israel is an idea and a country so worth defending, and also the way Israel defends itself is so often inexcusable. It is almost impossible to keep both ideas in one’s head. We’re going to try."

 

[Fragile Bird]

Not to derail the thread, but many school districts in North America decided decades ago to stop teaching The Merchant of Venice in high school, leaving it instead to university level courses where hopefully the students were smart enough to notice how despicable both sides were. We were taught the play in grade 9, the first year of high school, and our teachers used the play as a method to teach us about anti-semitism (as I think every school at the time did, or at least, I hope they did). Emphasis was placed on Portia’s speech, “the quality of mercy is not strained. It dropeth as the gentle rain from heaven, Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest: it blesseth him that gives and him that takes”.

The quality of mercy really isn’t a thread derailment.

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II]

I was taught Merchant of Venice in 7th Grade and i always thought he was a sympathetic character with that entire "has not a jew eyes,ears etc " speech. I dont think any reader would come off laughing at shylock at the end of the play. 

[Crixus]

29 minutes ago, Ser Rodrigo Belmonte II said:

I was taught Merchant of Venice in 7th Grade and i always thought he was a sympathetic character with that entire "has not a jew eyes,ears etc " speech. I dont think any reader would come off laughing at shylock at the end of the play. 

Yep, me too. Taught as part of O Level Lit, and our teacher really emphasised this speech as a highlight, eloquently depicting the cruel hypocrisy of the non-Jewish characters. I really came away hating them, and feeling for him. But enough derailing. 

[Spockydog]

6 hours ago, Relic said:

i have no idea what the cartoonist was thinking. I, for one, had no idea about the original cartoon, and had zero clue that the term "pound of flesh" was considered to be antisemitic. Before my time., i guess. 

I recently also found out that the term "peanut gallery" was racist. Had no clue at all, and used it many times.

I had zero idea that a pound of flesh had anti-semitic connotations. Then again, i never read Shakespeare.

When I saw the cartoon, it just looked like an moron trying to conduct a surgical operation with the wrong tools.

Shakespeare lived, what nearly 500 years ago? How many phrases and idioms have been introduced into the English language through his work? I'd be willing to bet that almost everybody who uses that term in 2023 hasn't got a clue about its origins.

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

I'd be willing to bet that almost everybody who uses that term in 2023 hasn't got a clue about its origins.

 

Possibly, certainly a lot won't. But most people aren't submitting provocative commentary about a Jewish figure during an extremely volatile situation. If you're doing that kind of thing you have a duty to know what the antisemitic tropes are that you need to avoid. 

[Zorral]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

Peanut gallery

In the US, for 50's white middle class people of our grandparents' generation, it was a household phrase due to an after school, live audience, television program, Howdy Doody!. For a kid from that era to have been in the show's Peanut Gallery was a splendid thing.

I for one, did see that cartoon and thought, why is there a caricature of LBJ from way back when doing in the Brit press? His showing of his operational scar was widely used here in the Vietnam era in the caricatures of him.

Times do change, and lexical-graphic signifiers do too!

But Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, "pound of flesh" still has the same meaning -- taking an 'entitled' too much from where there is too little. In the play the intent of the choice from where on the body to take the pound, was to kill Antonio, the merchant who lost his cargo, and couldn't pay back his loan.  He saved by Portia, disguised as a (male) lawyer, who is the 'hero' of the play, his daughter, Jessica, elopes with a Christian, the Venetian courts seizes Shylock's fortune and forces him to convert to Christianity, Portia marries her own choice (not Antonio), not her father's, and Antonio's lost ships show up.  So all ends happily. Except for Shylock, who mourns, "My daughter! My ducats! My daughter! My ducats!"

The play has all the Shakespearian tropes that we are so familiar with, particularly the female disguised as male, who also is smarter than most men around her.  Plus the marriage plots, and then, an examination of the forces of greed ... and, now, arguably, when people are more sensitive than in the 16th > centuries about such matters, that embedded in the Shylock plot that Jews are so badly treated that he is determined to take vengeance in kind in some way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Biden Faces Risks in Wartime Visit to Israel
A presidential trip to Israel at such a critical moment poses enormous challenges for the White House, in terms of both politics and security.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/us/politics/biden-israel-trip.html

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Zorral

[Tywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

Possibly, certainly a lot won't. But most people aren't submitting provocative commentary about a Jewish figure during an extremely volatile situation. If you're doing that kind of thing you have a duty to know what the antisemitic tropes are that you need to avoid. 

Eh, I'm inclined to give it a pass unless you can demonstrate he knew it was anti-Semitic. Have to agree with @IheartIheartTesla, a sit down with HR explaining why it was wrong and examining his motivations would have been a better way to handle this. I had no idea where the phrase came from until just now and I'm sure most of us can think of a time when we learned what we thought was a casual saying was actually rooted in bigotry. For example, I had no idea saying someone "gypped you" was a slur until I was probably in college. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Tywin et al.