Israel Hamas War XI -- Foggier and Foggier

[Daeron the Daring]

24 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

did they charge does kids with crimes? what crimes? doesnt israel have thousands of of kids and people in jail with out charge? without trial? the teenagers are kids too you know

I think among the people released there are children who face/faced charges and some who did not at all. No convicts, as far as I know.

Which obviously doesn't mean a lot of them didn't do nothing, but it must be said that everybody deserves to undergo the legal process of being charged and treated according the (ideally just) sentence, while also not having said people's human rights violated in the process of it, which does happen very often.

Not to mention the unjustly imprisoned segment of the bunch.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Zorral]

Gazan Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace
In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

Quote

 

Israel has cast the deaths of civilians in the Gaza Strip as a regrettable but unavoidable part of modern conflict, pointing to the heavy human toll from military campaigns the United States itself once waged in Iraq and Syria.

But a review of past conflicts and interviews with casualty and weapons experts suggest that Israel’s assault is different.

While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza shows that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

People are being killed in Gaza more quickly, they say, than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.

Precise comparisons of war dead are impossible, but conflict-casualty experts have been taken aback at just how many people have been reported killed in Gaza — most of them women and children — and how rapidly.

It is not just the scale of the strikes — Israel said it had engaged more than 15,000 targets before reaching a brief cease-fire in recent days. It is also the nature of the weaponry itself.

Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

“It’s beyond anything that I’ve seen in my career,” said Marc Garlasco, a military adviser for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon. To find a historical comparison for so many large bombs in such a small area, he said, we may “have to go back to Vietnam, or the Second World War.”

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria. ....

 

 

[Fragile Bird]

33 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Gazan Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace
In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

 

You know the saying about statistics, lies, damn lies and statistics? In the last three years Ukraine has lost just under 8 M residents to immigration. That’s more than all the Palestinians. Is that important?

Did you see the scenes at the Polish borders, all women and children because men were not allowed to leave? Oh, maybe about 8 M women and children? (Yes, probably not 100% women and children, but they made up the majority).

The median age in Ukraine is 44. It’s 19 in Gaza. Is that maybe why so many more children have died? And the Ukrainian number is the “official” number, as has been pointed out before, and no one believes the numbers provided by the Russians. The Ukrainians claim entire towns have been leveled and their citizens killed. The town of Maryinka was destroyed and its population alone was 10,000. No one knows how many are dead.

I personally think every death in Gaza has been a tragedy, a point I’ve made before. It’s the adults who are going to rebuild the country, not the children. It’s the adults who are needed to raise the children and feed them, clothe them and educate them. 

I understand the emphasis on children, to blacken the Israelis as much as possible. But I’d take the emphasis on children more seriously if any of you came from countries that actually valued children. Take the US, as has repeatedly been explained to us non-American readers, where politicians want to force women to have children and then abandon both mothers and babies after birth.

And Canada. We have a situation that I think is the same as in the US. If you lose a child in an accident you’re lucky to get enough money in a lawsuit to cover the burial of the child. Children have no value in our countries. Dead children are a tragedy to the families but not to the country because there are always more babies being born. You have a dead kid? Have another one.

I wasn’t always that cynical, going to law school educated me on the topic, and the news stories coming out of the US and elsewhere simply reinforces my cynicism.

[TrueMetis]

8 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

It's an apartheid regime, they don't actually need reasons to arrest people. Palestinians can be arrested for any reason the IDF/the Israeli police feel like, including walking on certain streets that have been declared sterile, meaning that only Jews can walk on them. Beyond that, in a lot of the cases, they haven't even been charged with anything, Israel can hold them in indefinite detention for the smallest of infractions, which does in effect amount to being kidnapped. .

And the reason that it is notable is the fact that  Israeli hostages are "females and children" while Palestinians are "females and teenagers". In case you're unaware, teenagers are children, and framing it that way makes it seem like they are dangerous youths or terrorist in training or some shit like that. It's the same thing as how Israelis are killed vs Palestinians just die, it's using different language depending on which side of the conflict they are on to elicit specific perceptions of events.

Yeah, hundred, thousands, are being held on indefinite detention with no conviction or obviously nonsense convictions. These are as much kidnapping victims as the victims of Hamas. And then people have the gall to complain about people being to mean to Israel, even as they given cover to the kidnapping, torture, and sexual abuse of Paletstinians, including children, by the IDF. And don't pretend otherwise, that is exactly what you're doing by accepting Israel's framing.

For an illustrative example of the Israeli "justice" system for Palestinians, let's look at the case of Ahmad Manasra: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/israel-opt-palestinian-prisoner-arrested-as-a-child-ahmad-manasra-still-in-prison-despite-worsening-mental-health/

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/07/un-experts-urge-israel-free-ahmad-manasra

In 2015 when Ahmed was 13 he was arrested for involvement in the stabbing of two settlers in a illegal settlement in East Jerusalem, he was interrogated and threatened without a lawyer present, and despite being found to have not been the one to have stabbed either victim was convicted anyway and has been in prison ever since. Including long bouts in solitary confinement.

Uncritically accepting these convictions amounts to uncritically accepting the conviction of black people in Jim Crow America.

But then, what can I expect from people who complain about calling a country settler-colonist when it has literal settlements on foreign territory.

Edited November 25, 2023 by TrueMetis

[mormont]

14 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Yeah, hundred, thousands, are being held on indefinite detention with no conviction or obviously nonsense convictions. These are as much kidnapping victims as the victims of Hamas.

That’s going too far. You’re not wrong that these kids are detained without trial or even in many cases knowing what they are charged with: you’re also not wrong that ther is substantial evidence that they, like adult Palestinian detainees and prisoners, have been subjected to abuse that has increased in intensity since October 7. Their detention is likely illegal and certainly wrong, and Israel should be ashamed of it. I would expect any person with a genuine interest in justice to condemn it.

But the Hamas kidnappings were not the same. Israel should be ashamed of these detentions but they are not being carried out on four year olds. The comparison weakens, rather than strengthening, the valid criticism of Israel here.

[TrueMetis]

The hell are you talking about? One kidnapping victim being worse does not make another kidnapping victim not a kidnapping victim, which is all I said.

[Daeron the Daring]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

The median age in Ukraine is 44. It’s 19 in Gaza. Is that maybe why so many more children have died? And the Ukrainian number is the “official” number, as has been pointed out before, and no one believes the numbers provided by the Russians. The Ukrainians claim entire towns have been leveled and their citizens killed. The town of Maryinka was destroyed and its population alone was 10,000. No one knows how many are dead.

The civilian casualties of Gaza are higher than that of the Ukraine war. Supposedly. 

If you want to make bad faith arguments, say that Gaza is much more crowded, Hamas hides behind infrastructure, qmong civilians, etc. You don't even have to make up shit.

On the other hand, the damage in the civilian infrastructure in comparison is huge. (Not sure about proportionality)

It's of course a huge difference that ukrainians actually had somewhere to go, but even then, Russia does actually care more about a ukrainian life than Israel does about the life of a Gazan. It has a lot to do with Russia seeing itself as this benevolent, natural overlord of Ukraine and its citizens, and not mere obstacles. Not genuine reasons, of course. Horrible ones, even, but at least they see a bigger of a value in the lives of civilians under the enemy than Israel does. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

but at least they see a value in the lives of civilians under the enemy.

On one hand Russia sees a value in children as so many Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and taken to Russia to be adopted ... or, who knows (I don't) , groomed for sex trafficking?

On the other hand Putin&Co. do label Ukrainians as nazis -- when not labeling them "Jews" -- thus killing them and taking their land is justified.

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

Is that maybe why so many more children have died?

It is because of the non-stop much heavier weaponry nonstop bombing from the air upon residential areas because Gaza is almost all residential in one way and another, and Israel, to quote itself, has no interest or intention of discriminating between Hamas and residential.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Daeron the Daring said:

Russia does actually care more about a ukrainian life than Israel does about the life of a Gazan. It has a lot to do with Russia seeing itself as this benevolent, natural overlord of Ukraine and its citizens, and not mere obstacles.

I think you might be buying into Putin's bollocks propaganda here. He obviously not only doesn't care about Ukrainian lives, he doesn't  care for Russian lives either. In fact, he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own hold on power. 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

On one hand Russia sees a value in children as so many Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and taken to Russia to be adopted ... or, who knows (I don't) , groomed for sex trafficking?

On the other hand Putin&Co. do label Ukrainians as nazis -- when not labeling them "Jews" -- thus killing them and taking their land is justified.

It is because of the non-stop much heavier weaponry nonstop bombing from the air upon residential areas because Gaza is almost all residential in one way and another, and Israel, to quote itself, has no interest or intention of discriminating between Hamas and residential.

And the special focus on damage rather than accuracy definitely doesn't help. 

[Daeron the Daring]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think you might be buying into Putin's bollocks propaganda here. He obviously not only doesn't care about Ukrainian lives, he doesn't  care for Russian lives either. In fact, he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own hold on power. 

What Putin cares about are all extensions of himself. In that sense, he cares about his own nation, his own country, etc. The typical fascist train of tought. Furthering the aims of Russia is his treat for himself, and that does include the systematic abduction of the ukrainian youth, the integration of occupied Ukraine, and the minimalization of the damage inflicted on the civilians. Casual imperialistic bullshit.

The difference in Israel's case is that they don't view the palestinians (or rather. the economic value of the palestinian labour force) as a fine addition to their collection, but a problem they're better off without.

Colonial exploitation vs colonial resettlement.

Edit: What I think didn't come through from my earlier post is that drawing a moral superiority between the two situations is impossible, let alone based on casualty numbers. Israel killed  people, but Hamas are still very much clear of them on who is worse.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Daeron the Daring

[Fragile Bird]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The civilian casualties of Gaza are higher than that of the Ukraine war. Supposedly. 

If you want to make bad faith arguments, say that Gaza is much more crowded, Hamas hides behind infrastructure, qmong civilians, etc. You don't even have to make up shit.

On the other hand, the damage in the civilian infrastructure in comparison is huge. (Not sure about proportionality)

It's of course a huge difference that ukrainians actually had somewhere to go, but even then, Russia does actually care more about a ukrainian life than Israel does about the life of a Gazan. It has a lot to do with Russia seeing itself as this benevolent, natural overlord of Ukraine and its citizens, and not mere obstacles. Not genuine reasons, of course. Horrible ones, even, but at least they see a bigger of a value in the lives of civilians under the enemy than Israel does. 

I’d say most of what’s in this post is false. The Russians don’t give a shit about Ukrainian lives. They’ve wiped out entire towns. 

I do have to agree that, from what I’ve seen in the news, far more infrastructure damage has been done in Gaza. It looks like a wasteland.

And none of my arguments are made in bad faith. Why would I have bad faith on the topic of dead children? Do you deny the median age of the Ukrainian population is 44 and the Gaza population is 19? Is that bad faith to you????

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

the median age of the Ukrainian population is 44 and the Gaza population is 19?

Twisting yourself in knots doesn't change the facts that Israel is doing nonstop bombing with far higher firepower than is going on in Ukraine.  Maybe you should factor in the fact that Russia has been attacking Ukraine for far longer, and yet there are more casualties of Gazan civilians than Ukrainian civilians.  That's ... pretty amazing isn't it, considering how heavily Ukraine has been attacked and how much damage has been done.

[Dofs]

2 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

The civilian casualties of Gaza are higher than that of the Ukraine war. Supposedly. 

If you want to make bad faith arguments, say that Gaza is much more crowded, Hamas hides behind infrastructure, qmong civilians, etc. You don't even have to make up shit.

On the other hand, the damage in the civilian infrastructure in comparison is huge. (Not sure about proportionality)

It's of course a huge difference that ukrainians actually had somewhere to go, but even then, Russia does actually care more about a ukrainian life than Israel does about the life of a Gazan. It has a lot to do with Russia seeing itself as this benevolent, natural overlord of Ukraine and its citizens, and not mere obstacles. Not genuine reasons, of course. Horrible ones, even, but at least they see a bigger of a value in the lives of civilians under the enemy than Israel does. 

Man, the braindead takes on the Ukraine war...

Ukraine has actual anti-aircraft capabilities. This is why infrastructure destruction in Ukraine is limited relative to its size. Russia can't destroy it because they simply can't fly their plane beyond proximity to a frontline. They tried to do it with long range ballistic missiles but at some point they simply started running out of them. Then they bought Iranian drones to do it but then Ukraine adapted. That's all there is.

Now, if you look at infrastructure where the actual fighting is going on, it's erased from the face of the earth with artillery. Did you see how towns like Bakhmut, Popasna, Maryinka and most especially Mariupol look like? There were huge outcries about Israel bombing hospitals, well, let me laugh in your face because hospitals getting obliterated in East Ukraine is such a non-news, no one is talking about it.

And with regards to civilian casualties, no one has any idea how many of them are, simply because all these destroyed cities are under Russia's control who don't report any truth whatsoever about civilian casualties.

So all your talk about Russia caring about Ukrainians lives are just straight up bullshit from your part. Like it was said by others, they don't care about any lives whatsoever.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Dofs

[Craving Peaches]

The Palestinian Red Cresent has reported Israel is besieging hospitals in the West Bank. Where is the justification for this?

[Conflicting Thought]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The Palestinian Red Cresent has reported Israel is besieging hospitals in the West Bank. Where is the justification for this?

Dont worry, they will find one

[mormont]

4 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

The hell are you talking about? One kidnapping victim being worse does not make another kidnapping victim not a kidnapping victim, which is all I said.

Kidnapping, to me, implies taking someone for exchange - money, concessions, whatever. That's not what Israel is doing.

What Israel is doing is abhorrent, don't get me wrong. And you're right, getting into a 'which atrocity is worse' contest is usually unproductive. But equally, the comparison invites equivalence here, and that offers nothing of value to the argument.

[TrueMetis]

11 minutes ago, mormont said:

Kidnapping, to me, implies taking someone for exchange - money, concessions, whatever. That's not what Israel is doing.

What Israel is doing is abhorrent, don't get me wrong. And you're right, getting into a 'which atrocity is worse' contest is usually unproductive. But equally, the comparison invites equivalence here, and that offers nothing of value to the argument.

Kidnapping is just unlawful detainment, no exchange required. Like child abductions are often done by a parent and there's never any demand or ransom made but that's absolutely a kidnapping. Didn't realize this was controversial.

Though if you think they're not getting anything by showing they have complete power over the populace and there's basically nothing that can be done to stop them IDK what to tell you. I guess technically that's not like, directly in exchange for something. Although given they're constantly using these people to swap for IDF soldier that get captured and the like I'm not sure how by even you're definition they aren't hostages.

And yeah, I am equating them. Because they are in fact equivalent. You don't need to get into the nitty gritty of each individual kidnapping victim to understand that one group of individuals unlawfully held against their will is much like another group of individuals unlawfully held against their will in that they're being unlawfully held against their will, IE kidnapped.

[JoannaL]

11 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Kidnapping is just unlawful detainment, no exchange required. Like child abductions are often done by a parent and there's never any demand or ransom made but that's absolutely a kidnapping. Didn't realize this was controversial.

Though if you think they're not getting anything by showing they have complete power over the populace and there's basically nothing that can be done to stop them IDK what to tell you. I guess technically that's not like, directly in exchange for something. Although given they're constantly using these people to swap for IDF soldier that get captured and the like I'm not sure how by even you're definition they aren't hostages.

And yeah, I am equating them. Because they are in fact equivalent. You don't need to get into the nitty gritty of each individual kidnapping victim to understand that one group of individuals unlawfully held against their will is much like another group of individuals unlawfully held against their will in that they're being unlawfully held against their will, IE kidnapped.

Thats nonsense, sorry  I do not understand what you want to say. What did 2 year old girls do? Isreal did not detain any young children. Only the Hamas terrorist did. Obviously there is a difference.

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, JoannaL said:

Thats nonsense, sorry  I do not understand what you want to say. What did 2 year old girls do? Isreal did not detain any young children. Only the Hamas terrorist did. Obviously there is a difference.

What feels like nonsense or even just a really poor argument is saying that there are actions that might justify kidnapping someone. 
 

If someone has done something they shouldn’t have done, something illegal, they should be detained and charged, not kidnapped and held indefinitely w/o being charged.