Watch, Watched, Watching: It's Award Season

[Darryk]

That's a bloody fascinating way of looking at it.

Another thing is that American Beauty was a classic Boomer film, and Fight Club was a classic Gen X film, but now Boomers have mostly retired and Gen X are mostly quite content with their corporate jobs.

[hauberk]

14 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Finished season 3 of Slow Horses tonight.

Well, it's still nice to see Gary Oldman in his disheveled look, and the season had some excellent zingers/dialogue. Yet, after three excellent episodes, the plot crumbles miserably and the whole thing becomes a parody of itself.
I'm a bit at a loss as to what happened. The writing was top notch for half the season, so what the fuck happened afterward? If I had to guess, it feels like they tried to adapt a small book or short story, or perhaps a plot point of a book, into an entire season, and made the mistake of putting everything in the first three episodes, with little left for the remaining three...
 

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Almost three episodes packed with action scenes? Well, my thoughts on this are:
1) This really isn't why I watch this show.
2) If you want to do action scenes, do them properly.
3) Finishing a season with action scenes is ok, but why reveal everything mid-season?

There really was no need to reveal that Diana Taverner was behind everything as early as episode 3 (though one could guess as early as episode 1). Sean explaining that he'd had help from someone within MI5 could have been revealed in the final episode... And among the last scenes, Lamb could have met Tavener to congratulate her... and make some outrageous demand too.
There was no need for all these scenes between Taverner and Tearney - three minutes at the end could have done the job.

And the action scenes... holly fuck, why? Most of them were ridiculous.
- Lamb, Standish & co... Why stay in the house? Booby-trapping the door was a decent idea (though was there really the time for that?). Why not run after that? Why not tell at least Catherine to run out the back? Why not give her a phone and tell her to meet with Roddy (who was supposed to stay in his car waiting)?
In the English countryside at night, no way Hobbs & the other guy would ever have found her.
The suggestion that she was "bait" makes no sense to me, since she was supposed to stay hidden/safe anyway...
The whole thing was just an excuse to have Lamb shine... But fighting isn't supposed to be his strong suit. And honestly, though his traps were decent, they weren't that brilliant either. Hobbs knew something was off from the start, he could have been more cautious...
- The "facility." I haven't seen action scenes this bad in a while. On paper this shouldn't even have been a fight. The moment Chieftain got in it was over. They had grenades, including certainly smoke grenades, and a kill on sight order. So why get in a firefight? Why not just throw a couple of grenades the moment they caught up with their targets?
Also, these guys were supposed to be professionals, most of them ex-military. How the fuck do they not check corners? How the fuck can they exchange fire for a while without either flanking or preventing flanking?
Even nerds having played counter-strike would have done a better job than these Chieftain guys. And I get that they were supposed to be kind of a joke, but this was a bit much. It's as if they forgot how to use their equipment... And talking of which:
- Why did those bullet-proof vests suddenly not do their job? How could Shirley's pistol shot kill a guy instantly? How did Marcus and Duffy conveniently both run out of bullets at the same time?
- Marcus having the "Lethal weapon trunk" was really shitty. It would have been much better for Shirley and him to come up with a clever plan to prevent Chieftain & Duffy to kill everyone. For instance, call journalists and tell them there's an ongoing anti-terrorism operation or something... Or use the MI5 badges to call in the Met, I dunno... There had to be something better than going in with guns... ?
- Talking of clever, wouldn't it have been hilarious if a crucial document (Tearney's assassination order of Alison Dunn for example) had been in the box that Cartwright had failed to deliver at the very beginning? Seemed like a missed opportunity to me.

I'm really annoyed that a show that is supposed to be a spy show attempted to become something else, and failed miserably. I think this could have been avoided easily by having all these characters use their brains rather than guns, which is what they're supposed to be good at. As it is, it feels like the writers suddenly went on strike mid-season and the producers decided to finish the script on their own.
I'll still watch the next season, but with much lower expectations...

 

The entire series is an adapted book series.   There were some mild deviations this season and at least one that weakened the overall story, IMO, but it continues to hit most of the beats of the book being adapted each season. 

[polishgenius]

42 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

I think it's easy to look on those late 90s movies about affluent white men in spiritual crisis, especially from the post-war-on-terror, post-great-recession, post-covid position and dismiss it by noting that that was as good as things were going to get, and these people had nothing to complain about. But I do think that these movies had a real point to make in spite of the various ways they've aged poorly. If you look at the protagonists of Office Space and American Beauty and Fight Club and your reaction is, "hey, at least you have a job, and it's a much better job than anyone in an equivalent position in 2024 can get," then I think the response of those movies would be, "a job isn't enough."

Or perhaps, to put it more broadly, if you construct an entire society on market logic and the acquisition of status and stuff, then even if you "win" in that society you'll still be miserable. There has to be something more.

 

 

I would say that the immaturity comes less from the crisis itself - and the criticism itself- and more about each character's answer. Lester turns back into a teenager and Jack becomes an edgelord king. To be fair both films are aware of this, and not actually lauding those things as an answer, but because neither has a real answer or ever engages with the question beyond the level each protagonist does, it does leave them feeling a bit lacking in hindsight, I think. Like criticism of materialism, living for your job or working only to buy things, those are fine, but neither film actually answers or even really engages with the question 'yeah and what?'. 

 

They are, possibly, victims of their own success. It may be that questioning that in such an up-front way was new, at least to the mainstream at the time, though since I was 13 when they came out I can't say what the zeitgeist was at the time really. 

I haven't seen Office Space so I can't speak to that one. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

You could add The Big Lebowski to that list, but IMO it holds up really well. 

24 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I haven't seen Office Space so I can't speak to that one. 

Make this your next watch. It's great and likewise I think it holds up really well too. 

[DMC]

On Usual Suspects - the plot may have been a mess.  But..isn't that kinda appropriate considering nearly the entire movie is based on an extremely unreliable narrator?

As for American Beauty, honestly I think at this point saying it's overrated is overrated.  It certainly "doesn't age well," but the most glaring example of that was still creepy as fuck when I saw it as a 14 year old in 1999.  It's greatest crime is criminally under-utilizing Allison Janney.

It is pretty crazy looking at all the movies that came out in 1999 though.  Some that haven't been mentioned:  The Insider, Election, Boys Don't Cry, Cider House Rules, The Hurricane, Boondock Saints, Magnolia, Dogma, Man on the Moon, Virgin Suicides, Any Given Sunday, Summer of Sam, American Pie, 10 Things I Hate About You, Cruel Intentions, Girl, Interrupted, Drop Dead Gorgeous, Sleepy Hollow, Blair Witch, The Mummy, Big Daddy, Analyze This, Austin Powers 2, Toy Story 2, Galaxy Quest, the South Park movie, Eyes Wide Shut (notable for being Kubrick's last).  And, of course, Phantom Menace.

[Nictarion]

Bringing Out the Dead is an underrated Scorsese from 1999. 

[Heartofice]

2 hours ago, Liffguard said:

But I do think that these movies had a real point to make in spite of the various ways they've aged poorly. If you look at the protagonists of Office Space and American Beauty and Fight Club and your reaction is, "hey, at least you have a job, and it's a much better job than anyone in an equivalent position in 2024 can get," then I think the response of those movies would be, "a job isn't enough."

Oh absolutely. I was 20 when these movies came out and they all resonated massively with me at the time. I don't think the things they were complaining about were incorrect. The capitalist vision of society that we were all sucked in to at the time felt all powerful and never ending, and also deeply unsatisfying. I think this was a point in time where many people had got all the things society had told them they needed and then realised that it didn't really fulfil them at all. 

It might be in a few years we will get another rash of these kind of movies and tv shows. But right now, media has found a bunch of other issues to be complaining about, often born out of online discourse, we just need a bit more of a quieter period to live through!

 

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Like criticism of materialism, living for your job or working only to buy things, those are fine, but neither film actually answers or even really engages with the question 'yeah and what?'. 

I guess none of these movies was actually pretending to give an answer to the questions. Many people take answers from something like Fight Club, I know I walked out the theatre thinking I needed to go punch someone, but actually the movie has no answers. You'd probably get more out something like We bought a zoo!

[Darryk]

Apparently David Fincher said "If you laugh during Fight Club, the joke's on you"

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Apparently David Fincher said "If you laugh during Fight Club, the joke's on you"

Yeah he's had to respond to it a lot over the years.  My favorite response:

Quote

"It’s impossible for me to imagine that people don’t understand that Tyler Durden is a negative influence," he continued. "People who can’t understand that, I don’t know how to respond and I don’t know how to help them."

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, DMC said:

On Usual Suspects - the plot may have been a mess.  But..isn't that kinda appropriate considering nearly the entire movie is based on an extremely unreliable narrator?

I think that gets missed a lot. The entire story is a lie with a bit of truth. Idk what's even accurate to be honest.

Quote

It is pretty crazy looking at all the movies that came out in 1999 though.  Some that haven't been mentioned:  The Insider, Election, Boys Don't Cry, Cider House Rules, The Hurricane, Boondock Saints, Magnolia, Dogma, Man on the Moon, Virgin Suicides, Any Given Sunday, Summer of Sam, American Pie, 10 Things I Hate About You, Cruel Intentions, Girl, Interrupted, Drop Dead Gorgeous, Sleepy Hollow, Blair Witch, The Mummy, Big Daddy, Analyze This, Austin Powers 2, Toy Story 2, Galaxy Quest, the South Park movie, Eyes Wide Shut (notable for being Kubrick's last).  And, of course, Phantom Menace.

Kind of a crazy year when you think about it. I haven't watched 10 Things I Hate About You in ages, but just from memory it's easy to see how Ledger would make a perfect Joker. Shit, now I'm going to have to rewatch that.

And I've never seen Galaxy Quest. or Eyes Wide Shut. Heard the former is great, the latter, is well, to your taste.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

And I've never seen Galaxy Quest

I included Galaxy Quest because I thought it was a lot of fun and pretty underrated as a Star Trek spoof.  Eyes Wide Shut, again, I thought was noteworthy pretty much solely because it was Kubrick's last film.  I've never been able to get through it.

10 Things is a very entertaining Shakespeare transformation. 

[Zorral]

Monsieur Spade begins today on Acorn & AMC.  Something to look forward to on this chilly night!

[AncalagonTheBlack]

24 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Monsieur Spade begins today on Acorn & AMC.  Something to look forward to on this chilly night!

Finished watching the first episode.

Really liked it. But to be honest I'm a huge Clive Owen fan ever since I first saw him in Croupier. 

Anyway, the show is very pretty to look at being , no surprise there since it's filmed in the very pretty French countryside!

There French cast is pretty good, i recognised some of the actors from some of the French tv series I've watched. 

Looking forward to the next episode.

[Ran]

Watched South Park (Not Suitable for Children), another one of their "specials" that gets around their deal with WBD. Thought this one was ridiculously fun in some ways (CRED is an excellent name for an influencer-driven sports drink aimed at kids), and then Randy Marsh.... I couldn't stop laughing for a bit there, it was just crazy. Good stuff. 

I did really re-watch Heat for the umpteenth time, still as good as the first time I saw it. Probably Mann's best picture. It's that or The Insider, anyways, but I think Heat hews closer to Mann's personal vision and interests. 

And then for something completely different, I rewatched Mannequin, the 1987 romantic fantasy starring Kim Cattrall and Andrew McCarthy (also, I forgot about this, but James Spader plays the ridiculously awful twerp of a villain, and really chews the scenery in a fun way). Meshach Taylor's role as Hollywood Montrose is, on the one hand, a very stereotypical flamboyant gay man... but on the other, the lead character's complete and easy acceptance of him feels surprisingly modern and progressive. 

The film really took me back. It's so... 80s. Probably rewatching The Running Man did it, but anyways, it was nice to dip into corny, sappy 80s pablum (it was totally savaged by critics on release, and maybe rightly so, but OTOH I think the fans who consider it a cult classic are right that some features of it really aged well -- the acceptance of Hollywood, for example, and the chemistry between Cattrall and McCarthy, the costuming, etc. I first watched the film at a rather impressionable age, as I recall (I think it was on the HBO rotation for a long while), and the long musical sequence in the middle of the film ended up being rather formative in some ways. IMDB claims that a couple of the scenes in the film may be influenced by the music videos of the French pop artist Jeanne Mas, which seems far-fetched, but maybe there's something to it.

For All Mankind finished it's 4th, and possibly penultimate, season (IIRC, they have said they were aiming for five years). It's much better than the 3rd season, despite its flaws.

Fargo is getting close to finishing up, and the penultimate episode was pretty great.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Ran said:

Probably Mann's best picture. It's that or The Insider, anyways, but I think Heat hews closer to Mann's personal vision and interests. 

Yeah Heat is definitely Mann's best Michael Mann movie, but I'm sympathetic to the argument The Insider is actually the better film.  Not my bag, but heard people argue for Last of the Mohicans too.  Mann had a good nineties.

[Veltigar]

I watched episode 6 of Reacher. It was kind of boring. I still have seven to watch, but it's beginning to feel a bit like a chore.

[Padraig]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

On Usual Suspects - the plot may have been a mess.  But..isn't that kinda appropriate considering nearly the entire movie is based on an extremely unreliable narrator?

True.  The ultimate in unreliable narrators.  It simply comes down to watchability.  For first time viewers, this is essential viewing probably.  For repeat viewers, the best way to watch it is probably to shut off the brain (because you'll try to create a plausible story based on the truth we are given and its a mess), which is not the best recommendation.

And American Beauty is certainly worth a watch (if for the performances if nothing else), as long as you know about the eww factor..

[Ran]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yeah Heat is definitely Mann's best Michael Mann movie, but I'm sympathetic to the argument The Insider is actually the better film.  Not my bag, but heard people argue for Last of the Mohicans too.  Mann had a good nineties.

I love The Last of the Mohicans, but it's such a different thing than everything else Mann has done, it stands out a bit. But the score is amazing, Daniel Day-Lewis and Wes Studi are fantastic, Madeline Stowe is perfection, and it's just such a romantic piece of adventure cinema... so, yeah, it's great. But it's not Heat or The Insider, it has some saggy parts.

[Argonath Diver]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

I watched episode 6 of Reacher. It was kind of boring. I still have seven to watch, but it's beginning to feel a bit like a chore.

I'm rapidly losing interest in this season. It's so utterly ridiculous at this point that they could just add 80s guitar riffs and sax solos and it'd immediately become a self-referential parody of 80s cheesy action shows. They're drowning the actor's natural charisma in absurdity. The NYPD cop was so ridiculous that I expected him at any moment to look directly at the camera and say "I'M NYPD BRO" and storm off the screen.

I was laughing through much of the last episode I watched, but for the wrong reasons. I'll finish out the season, certainly, but perhaps they should stick to rural settings to minimize how silly it is for some guy to blow into town and kill 50 bad guys and still walk around in public.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, Darryk said:

Apparently David Fincher said "If you laugh during Fight Club, the joke's on you"

I can see how young guys do, but as an adult I think it's a really smart horror film.

5 hours ago, DMC said:

I included Galaxy Quest because I thought it was a lot of fun and pretty underrated as a Star Trek spoof.  Eyes Wide Shut, again, I thought was noteworthy pretty much solely because it was Kubrick's last film.  I've never been able to get through it.

I've always heard good things about Galaxy Quest, just never got around to seeing it. And based on the pics Weaver has probably never looked better. 

Eyes Wide Shut is suppose to be extra creepy.