Israel - Hamas War 2

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Gorn said:

Everything on that list, except for paragliders, uses fuel. Hamas isn't fighting with bows and arrows.

Didn't say they were. But they're definitely not moving troops now nor are they going to any time soon. The reason this worked at all was that it was incredibly surprising. Do you think that's going to be the case again? Honestly, if I were Israel I would welcome Hamas deciding to try and mass vehicles because Israel would be able to go blow them up happily and with very reasonable provocation. Israel could state that any grouping of vehicles will be considered an active military target during this time and no one would bat an eye - and if Hamas tried something? Well, that'd be one less group of people that existed. 

And again, if you want to say that no diesel will be supplied but they'll still supply electricity what is the wikipedia justification for blocking that?

[Kalbear]

Also, this seems relevant:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/10/13/word-but-satire-petri/?utm_campaign=wp_follow_alexandra_petri&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_alexandrapetri

Quote

The words “Nevertheless,” “Still” and “However” jointly concurred in “But’s” statement, though “Nevertheless” looked visibly tired and strained.

“‘I am against the killing of children, regardless of who their parents are or where they live,’ is a set of words that never should be accompanied by any of us,” their statement read. “If you notice that you are putting us in, please, we beg you, reconsider.”

“But” also asked to be left out of sentences that start with “Of course, I condemn the deaths of innocent civilians,” and, especially, “I object to war crimes.”

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

43 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Yes, it is in fact rather fucked up to demand that the victim of an unspeakable tragedy behave exemplarily. 

Would you extend this belief to Jews? 

[Altherion]

1 hour ago, dbergkvist said:

So there are other ways to go after Hamas, other than a siege? I.e. the siege is an unnecessary, optional, war crime. Good to have that cleared out.

Of course there are other ways -- war is full of options -- but the siege (obviously) makes it easier for the Israelis in that it makes it more difficult for Hamas to resupply. It's one method among many.

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Right. No big deal then, nothing to discuss here.
I mean, once enough people will have died, we can totally count on Israel to obey the US's warning instantly.

Dude, if you don't give a fuck, why even bother posting?

Not instantly, but they will obey (more realistically, they will keep things from getting to that point). And it's not that I don't care, it's that I've (sadly) seen enough of this kind of actions to know what the consequences will be. It was completely obvious that there would be many more casualties the moment the scale of the initial attack became apparent. I bother posting for the same reason that I think most people here do -- it's an extraordinary event and we want to say something even though it's not likely to make any difference whatsoever.

1 hour ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

Both Biden and Blinken have stated that Israel has the US's full support, but also stated that part of what makes democratic states strong is that they do care about human life and are not going to be indiscriminate. To me that's clearly stating that the US will have limits and given that these were public statements I suspect those limits are already being reached.

I don't think that is what it means. That sounds like the usual hedging that pretty much everyone does. The US certainly does have limits, but thus far it's letting Israel go ahead and even sending them additional weapons and munitions. To me, that looks like the US is ready for a longer term conflict and will tolerate it unless the Israelis really go too far.

[Rippounet]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Would you extend this belief to Jews? 

Jews? Of course. The current Israeli government? Not a chance.
I'm not sure why you of all people, who have no love for Netanyahu & co, seem to conflate Jews with this government, when even the Israeli population is obviously starting to hold it partly responsible for the attacks.
It seems to me that, if we want to save Israel as a nation, we need to condemn this government and every single one of its failings in the strongest possible terms, with the hope that international public opinion can turn around once Netanyahu is out.

[lessthanluke]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I genuinely would prefer if people don't push conspiracy theories that can be construed as antisemitic secret cabal nonsense. Talking of secret policies of the elite or whatever... well, it leaves a very bad taste, and is not a good look.

Can we please stop calling things anti semitic just because Israel is involved.

[Ran]

11 minutes ago, lessthanluke said:

Can we please stop calling things anti semitic just because Israel is involved.

I am not calling it antisemitic because Israel is involved. Indeed, I have called out people who have tried to shut down arguments about Israel by claiming antisemitism when there is none.

I am calling it antisemitic because someone used the very specific trope of secret policies and agendas that are hidden from the world that only the wise conspiracy theorist understands. It is not cool, and it is not an acceptable direction to steer a discussion just because you can't support a belief.

And that's the last I'll be questioned on this in public -- if you have questions about mod policy, you message the mods, not complain about it on the forum.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Ran

[IheartIheartTesla]

Israel didnt even bother informing the US before issuing the evacuation order. I don't believe the US has too many levers to apply to Israel regarding their current blockade except for withdrawing or cutting their military aid, and that would be hugely unpopular domestically.  They'd probably tell us to eff off (or whatever the diplomatic equivalent is) while they concluded their business. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

14 minutes ago, Madame deVenoge said:

I’m kind of wondering if proper terminology might be “Jewish people” rather than “Jews”? Unless one is, oneself, of Jewish heritage?

That is a real question, I’m not being facetious.

There is no easy answer. The term "Jew" has unfortunately been coopted by anti-Semites, particularly in recent decades, and effectively made into a slur. Yet, should we allow hate groups to lay claim to terminology?

Jewish people seem to be split on whether or not, both in studies that have been done and anecdotally speaking,

The safer method is to avoid using the term, and we can see that play out in media and speeches. But even in doing that, many Jewish people and experts who take no issue with the term itself might say that is ceding it to the bigots.

[Craving Peaches]

Al Jazeera reports people who are trying to flee are being bombed...

[Jace, Extat]

19 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

This needs to be the statement beaten into everyone's head. Hamas openly says it wants to kill every Jew. Every. Single. One. And once they got power they set out to do such. So stop both sidings this shit. The Israeli government has done a lot of fucked up shit, but they're not comparable to Hamas and yet some people here seem to have more sympathy for a terrorist organization than the people they explicitly have stated they want to murder and just did. JFC. 

This gets me. I feel compelled to defend the honor of the IDF, as someone who was in an army myself. 

Western militaries don't get off on killing civillians. That's -why- this conversation is taking place.

Acting like Israel's troops are going to go door to door massacreing, or that they're intentionally killing civillians in a genocidal campaign is an idiot-lensed way to view the situation. 

Israel was attacked by ACTUAL GENOCIDE-minded actors who use civillians as human shields. Their response is, unfortunately, going to see a lot more people dead. But the fact is that Israel could flatten Gaza. They could bomb indescriminately. They don't. 

War is a terrible, terrible, thing. But so is having to battle terrorists within rocket and paraglider range.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Altherion said:

This is the exact opposite of the case. Their actions -- both historically and current ones -- have been extremely cautious because of both the culture of the place and the fact that they know that they're dependent on the approval of other nations (at the very least the US, but also to a considerable extent the EU). If something like this happened to a less cautious nation (e.g. the US), the casualties would have been much higher by now.

Some people in this thread are acting like we're about to witness something like the siege of Leningrad in WWII, but this is just silly. Yes, the Israelis have temporarily tried to restrict the flow of goods and personnel, but they would never get away with doing it for long enough to cause widespread starvation -- even if they wanted to do it (and they almost certainly don't), they US would tell them to stop.

In 1982, during the two-month Israeli siege of Beirut (probably the point at which Ariel Sharon's career should have ended, but hey ho), the United States effectively forced Israel to break the siege after it had exceeded any actual military value and was simply killing civilians, by threatening to cut off military aid and then by threatening to put sanctions on the country. And this was Reagan. But he could see the optics were shredding Israel's international reputation and were damaging the US as Israel's main backer. 

That did not stop 5,000 civilians dying in the process, and Beirut (especially inside the siege lines) was significantly smaller and less heavily-populated than the Gaza Strip is now.

So, yes the United States did and does wield enormous power over Israel to force it to accede to its demands after a certain point. When it chooses to exercise that power will be interesting to see. I suspect Biden will not give them as much rope as Reagan, but then the casus belli for the Siege of Beirut (a failed assassination attempt on an Israeli ambassador) was far less severe than this. Of course, arguably the siege achieved a geopolitical success by forcing Arafat and the PLO to withdraw from Lebanon, severely eroding their Arab power base and arguably contributing to Arafat turning to the peace process later on (Bin Laden later cited the siege as a key motivation for 9/11, but then again his motivation for the attacks seemed to change depending on the day of the week).

2 hours ago, Ran said:

The former, obviously, not the latter. Though, frankly, I do not know what the PA has said about the present blockade other than Abbas telling Secretary Blinken that there should be humanitarian corridors (which sort of implies he's okay with the concept of the blockade in general, so long as efforts are made to help the civilian population).

Abbas would be deliriously happy with Hamas being liquidated with extreme prejudice tomorrow, and privately he'd also be happy to sell out a certain number of Gazan civilians to do it. He sees Hamas and its influence as a significant threat to his own power and that of his party in the West Bank.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Jews? Of course. The current Israeli government? Not a chance.
I'm not sure why you of all people, who have no love for Netanyahu & co, seem to conflate Jews with this government, when even the Israeli population is obviously starting to hold it partly responsible for the attacks.
It seems to me that, if we want to save Israel as a nation, we need to condemn this government and every single one of its failings in the strongest possible terms, with the hope that international public opinion can turn around once Netanyahu is out.

Hamas murdered a lot of Jews who were protesting against this gov. No way to know how many, but this attack targeted any/all Jews (without regard that a quarter of Israelis and many others in Israel who aren't Jews). This gov is finished, but no Israeli gov would have stood for this attack without response. Hamas committed this act. They might have benefitted from a failure of Netanyahu's gov, but the murder is still on Hamas.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[Bael's Bastard]

Jews is what we are called and is not a slur unless you use it as such. If you're uncomfortable with the term you are probably used to hearing it as a slur. In Hebrew there is no distinction between Jew and Jewish, Yehudi, just as there is no distinction between Israelite and Israeli, Yisraeli.

[Craving Peaches]

23 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

But the fact is that Israel could flatten Gaza.

They are in the process of doing this though, the footage makes that very clear.

What Gaza infrastructure has been damaged since Israel declared war? | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Photos show scale of the destruction of Israel air attacks on Gaza | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

23 minutes ago, Jace, Extat said:

They could bomb indescriminately. They don't. 

What about emergency services going to treat civilians being bombed, as well as the people fleeing being bombed? At the very least, they are being hit by careless bombing. At worst, they are being deliberately targeted. Ambulances have markings to specifically identify them as ambulances.

Sources:

Gaza rescue workers scared and exhausted under Israel's air strikes | Reuters

Israel attacks on Gaza refugee camp kills dozens of Palestinians | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Gaza medics say Israel targeting ambulances, health facilities | Gaza News | Al Jazeera

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-gaza-hamas/?id=103804516

[Craving Peaches]

A member of Israeli diplomatic staff has been stabbed in Beijing!

Israeli embassy staffer assaulted in Beijing, Israeli foreign ministry says | Reuters 

Thankfully he is in a stable condition.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Zorral]

What's a war crime, what is a crime against humanity?

Gift link:  https://wapo.st/3PSenFD

Have war crimes been committed in Israel and Gaza?

 

[Jace, Extat]

20 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

the part about genocide is directed at ran and others like him like jace

Dawg I made 2 posts across 2 threads (this being my 4th). Nice to know I leave an impression though. 

But, while I'm here. And while the word genocide is getting thrown around I'll defend myself. 

I don't think I've ever used the G word regarding Russia in Ukraine, because I don't believe Russians are orcs and I don't think their actions in the region genuinely rise to such a horror. My support for Ukraine is and always has been an opposition to Russian expansion and power-projection. I don't think I've ever been anything but clear on that. 

So I have no problem accepting the reality that thousands and thousands will die in error as part of Israel's response to having its people carried away. That's what happens in war. And thank God that Hamas doesn't have Israel's arsenal or there would be no Israel. An actual genocide, one with intent.

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

What about emergency services going to treat civilians being bombed, as well as the people fleeing being bombed? At the very least, they are being hit by careless bombing. At worst, they are being deliberately targeted. Ambulances have markings to specifically identify them as ambulances.

 

War. Shit happens. It's not a nice answer but it's the only one that's true. 

There's such a gulf between carrying away hostages and errant bombs that you and I will never have a productive conversation on this subject. Live long and prosper, baby. 

[Craving Peaches]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/war-crime-gaza-medics-say-israel-targeting-ambulances-health-facilities

Quote

“All of a sudden we were targeted [by an air attack] and we ran for safety,” Taha, a paramedic, told Al Jazeera. The emergency team jumped into their cars on Salah al-Din Road and the vehicles proceeded a few metres before another air strike hit.

Quote

The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) on Wednesday condemned “the intentional targeting of medical teams”, which killed “four paramedics in less than half an hour today, despite prior coordination”.

Gaza: new evidence of deliberate attacks on medics by Israeli army | Amnesty International UK

Stray bombs are one thing, intentionally targeting ambulances would be quite another.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Craving Peaches
Clarifying

[Lord of Oop North]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/war-crime-gaza-medics-say-israel-targeting-ambulances-health-facilities

Gaza: new evidence of deliberate attacks on medics by Israeli army | Amnesty International UK

Stray bombs are one thing, intentionally targeting ambulances is quite another.

Do you actually read these articles? You are saying intentional, but even the article by Amnesty says allegedly. That article is also from 2014.

 

Quote

An immediate investigation is needed into mounting evidence that the Israel Defense Forces launched apparently deliberate attacks against hospitals and health professionals in Gaza, said Amnesty International, as it released disturbing testimonies from doctors, nurses and ambulance personnel working in the area.