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[Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

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1 minute ago, briantw said:

I'd imagine the king can pretty easily waive someone's Night's Watch oath.  Stannis implied as much in the books when he offered Jon Winterfell.

Possibly....

but under whose jurisdiction is the Nights Watch now exactly? 

Do they follow Sansa in the North, as they are in the north and she’s nearer....?

Or are they ruled from kings landing/ the six kingdoms, in spite of the fact that there’s an massive independent Northern landmass in between the wall and the six kingdoms, making any realistic connection or loyalty to the 6 kingdoms implausible? 

I mean aside from the fact that the wall is in bits, there’s nothing to protect the realms of men from and the wildlings have an open invitation to settle anywhere in the north... surely Sansa can just start including the real north as part of her patch?

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Just now, Raksha 2014 said:

And I've heard/read the same thing elsewhere.  So at least some of what we saw tonight will very likely be at the end of the books.

I think the fates of the Starks will all be the same, or at least similar.  Just the paths to get there less shitty.

I think the fates of Jaime and Cersei will be radically different.  I think D&D fell in love with Lena and changed her end game because of it.  They also castrated Euron and presumably gave a lot of his role in the story to the Night King, who probably doesn't exist (at least not as that specific character) in the books.  So his ending will almost certainly be wildly different.

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1 minute ago, Figdoni said:

Possibly....

but under whose jurisdiction is the Nights Watch now exactly? 

I'd assume the Night's Watch is still sworn to defend the realm, which would mean all of Westeros.  Not that it really matters at this point because they're not really defending it from anyone any more.

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I was surprised they remembered to take on Edmure Tully. I think most viewers have forgotten about him.

And King's Landing seemed to be pretty cleaned up after two weeks when everyone was sailing away.

I'm still a bit confused about Unsullied and Dothraki just going off and Sansa casually saying she'll remain Queen. I presume that's what rushing episodes gets you to.

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I think it's very unlikely that Jaime is the valonqar at this point. Having two main characters kill their "mad queen" lovers would be redundant.

I've seen people speculate that they kept the White Walkers vague for the sake of the prequel show, and I think that's probably true. It wouldn't surprise me if we learn that you can never permanently kill the Walkers, only delay them (which would explain why there's still a Night's Watch).

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1 minute ago, briantw said:

I think the fates of the Starks will all be the same, or at least similar.  Just the paths to get there less shitty.

I think the fates of Jaime and Cersei will be radically different.  I think D&D fell in love with Lena and changed her end game because of it.  They also castrated Euron and presumably gave a lot of his role in the story to the Night King, who probably doesn't exist (at least not as that specific character) in the books.  So his ending will almost certainly be wildly different.

 

I think Jaime and Cersei will both die; but maybe in different ways from the books.  I actually liked their last scene in the show; all their arrogance and pride gone, their love being the only thing left and only for a few more seconds.  But GRRM might well do it differently and probably better.  TV-Euron was a brutish teddy bear; we already know he is much more dangerous  in the books.

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The new rule for rulers is "it's all by accident" all you have to do is survive the stupidity and you have a shot at the crown. Three dragons is not a shoe in. They just get you more accidents. Better to just fly under the radar and help out occasionally while appearing not to really want to be a royal if you can stand the abuse while the contenders whack each other out of rule. Never stand to close to your big hole in the floor either if you have a castle in the clouds... just saying.

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3 minutes ago, briantw said:

I think the fates of the Starks will all be the same, or at least similar.  Just the paths to get there less shitty.

I think the fates of Jaime and Cersei will be radically different.  I think D&D fell in love with Lena and changed her end game because of it.  They also castrated Euron and presumably gave a lot of his role in the story to the Night King, who probably doesn't exist (at least not as that specific character) in the books.  So his ending will almost certainly be wildly different.

I don't know how different their fates will be but for me at least the issue is not really what happens but how it happens. 

Sansa's and Theon's stories more or less were convincing, despite certain controversial aspects.

Cersei's was also more or less believable, even though at this point in the books it is hard to predict how the situation will develop.

Jaime and Dany though, those two, a shame. Two really good actors, two fascinating storylines and they rushed/distorted their stories.

 

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I liked this episode better than I thought I would.  Though that is almost entirely because I'm interpreting the events in a different direction than I think the show intends.  But hey, death of the author and all that.

So while I think we are supposed to be happy that our Stark heroes got their happy endings, I see the ending in more of a tragic light. 

Bran is proven to have manipulated everyone so that he could be king.  I always knew he used people as tools e.g. Hodor, but he has become a master of the game of thrones.  Manipulating Jon and Tyrion and well, pretty much everyone he spoke with to place himself into the position where everyone votes for him to be king.

And as king he immediately (well technically he isn't even king yet) shows his nepotism by allowing Sansa to become Queen in the North.  He also allows Jon to take the black which results in him becoming the King Beyond the Wall (effectively if not in reality).

And while Westeros now has an elective monarchy, since it is only the great lords who get to vote, we no longer even have the chance of having a king who prioritizes the small folk over the lords.  Which we could have had in a traditional monarchy.  Though at least we won't be getting a truly awful king who can only be removed by rebellion.  Though that doesn't mean there will be lasting peace since by letting the North break away they set up a terrible precedent.  Either future kings allow kingdoms to break off whenever they want or go to war with the North to bring it back into the fold and show that it only got away with it for a time because of Bran's nepotism.

We prove that even though Dany went too far in The Bells episode, she did not go mad.  She still was working towards her goal of breaking the wheel, and she didn't intend to stop until the whole world was free.  But she is killed before she could because Tyrion, in an attempt to save his own skin, convinces Jon that he needs to kill her lest she execute Sansa and Arya.  I think that how Drogon responds to her death proves that she was a good person.  Did he give in to his rage over her death and kill Jon?  No, he mourned the death of his mother and then tried to fulfill his mother's wish for a better world by breaking the wheel in the best way a dragon can.  Afterwards he peacefully flew off with his mother to bring her to a better place.  If such gentleness could be displayed in a creature of fire incarnate, you have to praise his mom for her good influence.

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Squall said:

I was surprised they remembered to take on Edmure Tully. I think most viewers have forgotten about him.

I'm still a bit confused about Unsullied and Dothraki just going off and Sansa casually saying she'll remain Queen. I presume that's what rushing episodes gets you to.

I think the whole point of Edmure-poor guy was humiliated by his own niece- was to remind us that there are still other domains and beyond Jon, Dany and Tyrion we do have other players, no matter how unimportant they may seem.

Who was the dornish representative though? I probably missed his name. 

As for Sansa I suppose that her proclamation in the episode will be at least a chapter in the books where the Northern Lords and commoners will demand their independence. I think that tv Sansa was given aspects from Lady Dustin and Lord Manderly. 

Edited by Danelle

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Benioff and Weiss make an attempt to put a narrative justification for Dany's action in Tyrions mouth with the stuff about the slavers, the Mereenese nobles and the Khals. And it just made me even more angry about the face heel turn they inflicted on Dany. To try and justify the character turn as if these examples foreshadowed what happened next is to add an absurd moral equivalence to the steaming pile that they they have made of this season. Just to take the liberation of Astapor as an example - the orders where extremely specific, harm no child, only attack the masters. It seriously is not anything like the burning of a city after it's surrender - which of course the characters in world knew - Tyrion and Varys joined after most of these acts and had no problem until an episode ago, when suddenly Varys is required to worry about a mad Queen. This is ret conning and for all the incredible cinematography and acting and productions values the end became hollow because how spectaculalry they messed up both the NK story and Dany's arc.

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Posted (edited)

Well, that happened.

This is the capstone that has ruined the series for me:

- They go full Disney after killing Dany and every character gets a happy ending.

- The show asserts that there would not be negative consequences to killing Dany. No Jon death. No vengeance on the Starks. The series has stressed the issues of unintended consequences. 

- The show ties itself in a knot by killing Dany. They are trying to make the point that violence is bad and pursuit of power is bad. But then have the entire issue solved by “oh if we kill the bad people then the good will rise to the top”. This undercuts the entire morality.

- The wise council elects a King? No. Just no. 

- Elective monarchies like the Holy Roman Empire and Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth were disasters. The show runners are ignorantly assuming that hereditary monarchy is the problem. England became a constitutional monarchy without changed hereditary monarchy.

- This elected council allows the North to have its own King? If hereditary monarchy is a problem then why allow the nobles their powers and a Stark in Winterfell? You can’t have it both ways.

- The show decides to hang everything that is wrong with the world on Daenerys. Despite having depicted her as a hero up until two episodes ago.

- Every character acts as if putting cities to the sword is a singularly unusual act. When in reality it was common in the Middle Ages and Ancient World.

- In short, the show falls back on black and white morality without any grounding in reality.

 

 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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And Essos scenes have been missing for two seasons, outside of a few name drops. What will happen there? Will the former slaves come back to have revenge on the brutal murder of the Breaker of Chains?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Danelle said:

It did seem a bit random.

I mean her maternal grandfather was mentioned that he loved to travel, and there was a Stark ancestor who also seemed to enjoy exploring. But so far in the books and the tv series her arc seemed to focus on revenge and her pack. Perhaps in the books we will be given more context in regards to that decision. 

I think it's already in the books. The ending made sense to me. 

 

Quote

“If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I’d just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan’s stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn’t ever fly back unless I wanted to.”

Excerpt From: George R.R. Martin. “A Clash of Kings.” Apple Books. 

Quote

“Polliver said that Sansa killed him, and the Imp. Could that be true? The Imp was a Lannister, and Sansa… I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away.”

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Storm of Swords.” Apple Books. 

In Braavos, what she liked best was the harbor. She can hear about all the adventures sailors took.

Quote

"...the Ragman’s Harbor, a poorer, rougher, dirtier port than the Purple. Cat liked it best of any place in Braavos. She liked the noise and the strange smells, and seeing what ships had come in on the evening tide and what ships had departed.She liked the sailors too;"

 

& taking revenge prevented her from maintaining the lifestyle that she liked.

Quote

“She missed the friends she’d had when she was Cat of the Canals; Old Brusco with his bad back, his daughters Talea and Brea, the mummers from the Ship, Merry and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum. She missed Cat herself the most of all, even more than she missed her eyes. She had liked being Cat, more than she had ever liked being Salty or Squab or Weasel or Arry. I killed Cat when I killed that singer.”

Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin. “A Dance with Dragons: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book Five.” Apple Books. 

Additionally, with the people she admires like the pirate queen it makes sense. 

 

She also has a few similarities with Elissa Farman who also sailed west of Westeros. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elissa_Farman

Edited by ARYa_Nym

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3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well, that happened.

This is the capstone that has ruined the series for me:

- They go full Disney after killing Dany and every character gets a happy ending.

- The show asserts that there would not be negative consequences to killing Dany. No Jon death. No vengeance on the Starks. The series has stressed the issues of unintended consequences. 

- The show ties itself in a knot by killing Dany. They are trying to make the point that violence is bad and pursuit of power is bad. But then have the entire issue solved by “oh if we kill the bad people then the good will rise to the top”. This undercuts the entire morality.

- The wise council elects a King? No. Just no. 

- Elective monarchies like the Holy Roman Empire and Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth were disasters. The show runners are ignorantly assuming that hereditary monarchy is the problem. England became a constitutional monarchy without changed hereditary monarchy.

- This elected council allows the North to have its own King? If hereditary monarchy is a problem then why allow the nobles their powers and a Stark in Winterfell? You can’t have it both ways.

- The show decides to hang everything that is wrong with the world on Daenerys. Despite having depicted her as a hero up until this point.

- Every character acts as if putting cities to the sword is a singularly unusual act. When in reality it was common in the Middle Ages and Ancient World.

- In short, the show falls back on black and white morality without any grounding in reality.

 

 

They cheated.

For six and a half seasons, the show revelled in brutality.  Honour and decency got you killed. Being cruel was badass.  The way to defeat cruel enemies was to be crueller than they were.  The internet exploded with delight when Jon hanged Olly, Cersei tortured Unella to death, Arya gouged out Meryn Trant's eyes, and fed Walder Frey his sons, and Sansa fed Ramsay to his dogs.  And, at every point, the show runners invited us to to cheer.

And so to Dany.  There was nothing reprehensible about the way she behaved when her brother was killed, but now it's retconned as the start of her journey into darkness.   Actions which might have been portrayed as disturbing were generally shown as triumphant and uplifting, like burning MMD and hatching the dragons or locking Doreah in a vault.  When she came to Westeros, she was given consistently bad advice by her counsellors.  Reasonably enough, she came to suspect that they were at best incompetent, and at worst, treacherous.   But, her suspicion of them is now portrayed as further evidence of her moral descent.  And, as people did come to betray her, and she punished them, those punishments are now portrayed as evidence of her bad character.

Horrific as the Sack of Kings Landing was, it was true to the world that the show runners had created - the inhabitants of the city have hitherto been portrayed as a loathsome bunch, and cities that offered resistance were sacked in the past - until they decided that cruelty to enemies was a bad thing after all.

And really, the implication of Bran becoming King, and intending it all along, is that Dany was set up to be killed the moment she's helped defeat the Night's King.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think drogon didn’t kill John because because bran was warg into him or maybe it was just John’s Targaryen blood who doesn’t allow dragon to burn him to the ground.

I do think John would have stand against Danny but I can see him stabbing her like that. He has always been the one who resembles the most to lord Eddard, and he has show to have the same values carrying out the sentences by himself. The stabbing scene was more in the likes of Jaime Lannister the a kid rise by lord Eddard Stark

Edited by Artcasur

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6 minutes ago, Artcasur said:

I think drogon didn’t kill John because because bran was warg into him or maybe it was just John’s Targaryen blood who doesn’t allow dragon to burn him to the ground.

I do think John would have stand against Danny but I can see him stabbing her like that. He has always been the one who resembles the most to lord Eddard, and he has show to have the same values carrying out the sentences by himself. The stabbing scene was more in the likes of Jaime Lannister the a kid rise by lord Eddard Stark

Well Targaryens can be killed by dragons, just ask Queen Rhaenyra.

On the other hand, it is quite ironic, the killing of a Targaryen monarch yet again but by a Stark this time. Jon became a kinslayer and a queenslayer. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry but I can't let the "Bran the broken" idiocy go. If someone gets a title it's something flattering or impressive, Why wouldn't they go with Bran the wise or Bran the 3eyeRaven, I know it's Brendan Rivers nickname in the books but on the show it is a title that is passed on. If they do get a condescending nickname it's said behind their back. I get it, it was supposed to be a throwback to the whole "cripples bastards and broken things" line Tyrion spewed in Season 1. I guess the show doesn't use the term cripple anymore because they pandered so hard to the liberals so now Bran is just one of the "broken things" that's so much better right. These guys can't write anything for themselves and when they drop these little season 1 references all the time its just cringing. I think 90 percent of anything D&D contributed was meme generated crap.

Edited by darksellsword

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