War Declared in Israel

[Bael's Bastard]

Hamas considers pre-67 Israel occupied, so the idea that ending the blockade (which Egypt also maintains) and pulling out of the West Bank would prevent more of this is a total fantasy. Especially since the Second Intifada preceded Israel's pullout from Gaza, the Palestinian election of Hamas, Hamas' rise in Gaza, and the blockade. The simultaneous "Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians" and "This is a natural response to the occupation" being repeated by so many right now (whether here or social media) is contradictory bullshit. If this is just Hamas being Jew-hating assholes, it shouldn't be hard to condemn them and say this isn't legitimate or a natural consequence, just a genocidal group not representative of Palestinians or Gazans pulling a complete bullshit move. Just as it is easy to call out the right wing Israeli government's expansion of remote settlements, enabling of Hilltop Youth assholes, and excessive bullying of Palestinians in the WB.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bael's Bastard

[GrimTuesday]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Hamas considers pre-67 Israel occupied, so the idea that ending the blockade (which Egypt also maintains) and pulling out of the West Bank would prevent more of this is a total fantasy. Especially since the Second Intifada preceded Israel's pullout from Gaza, the Palestinian election of Hamas, Hamas' rise in Gaza, and the blockade. The simultaneous "Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians" and "This is a natural response to the occupation" being repeated by so many right now (whether here or social media) is contradictory bullshit. If this is just Hamas being Jew-hating assholes, it shouldn't be hard to condemn them and say this isn't legitimate or a natural consequence, just a genocidal group not representative of Palestinians or Gazans pulling a complete bullshit move.

Hamas not being representative of all Palestinians and saying that this is the natural response to the occupation are not contradictory in any way. When you live in a oppressed state for long enough, eventually there are those who will lash out violently. You say this is just Hamas being Jew hating assholes, but I ask you, why do you think they hate them? Is it because they're born to hate the Jews or is it because Israel, a self ascribed Jewish state, has committed acts of brutality on them for decades and left them traumatized and without hope?

As for ending the blockade not ending violence, that is just a way to continue the genocidal grind that the Israel is perpetrating. Peace has to start somewhere, and Israel has to be the one to make the first move because they are the only ones with power in this situation.

Separately, one thing that should be noted about the hostages, if you are taking hostages, you aren't taking them just to kill them, hostages are leverage to achieve your goals, and Israel, through their bombing campaign have signaled to Hamas that those hostages are worthless. Obviously I'm not white washing this, they didn't take them to play patty cake and snuggle, but looking at the political motivations of these actions gives us a better picture of what is actually happening rather than just buying into the misinformation and biases of the bulk of western media that seeks to obfuscate and defend Israel's crimes.

Edited October 10, 2023 by GrimTuesday

[Kalbear]

Somewhat unrelated: be really wary of trusting anything on X now, as the amount of misinformation and disinformation is significantly higher than it used to be.

Quote

 

“It’s getting incredibly hard to find people that actually live in Palestine or in southern Israel,” Peden tells WIRED. “It’s been incredibly hard to find their preliminary information and share their videos and photos. You have this perfect storm where on the ground, preliminary sources are not being amplified, especially those that maybe don’t speak English, which is a large majority of users in that area.”

Boosted by the algorithm that promotes users willing to pay X $8 a month for a premium subscription, posts from those with a blue checkmark shot to the top of news feeds for people seeking information about the conflict.

Rather than being shown verified and fact-checked information, X users were presented with video game footage passed off as footage of a Hamas attack and images of firework celebrations in Algeria presented as Israeli strikes on Hamas. There were faked pictures of soccer superstar Ronaldo holding the Palestinian flag, while a three-year-old video from the Syrian civil war repurposed to look like it was taken this weekend.

Weirdly to me Threads is apparently much better in this regard, at least right now. 

[polishgenius]

8 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

So are you guys really that ok with the Hamas gunmen who chased the concert goers into the bomb shelters and gunned them down? Not one of you had a dark corner of your mind that whispered the Israelis should do the same?

 

Implying that not wanting Israel to just randomly slaughter Palestinians equates to support for what Hamas have done and are doing, which is what you just did here, is both baffling and insulting. 

 

8 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

It’s exactly the same part of my brain that says “hang the bastard” when a shooter goes in and kills 25 people in a shopping mall or a school, even though I’m massively against the death penalty.

But those two things aren't the same. In that situation that part of your brain wants to harm the person who actually did it. Not random bystanders and children. 

 

8 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

No one is going to pop up in Toronto with machine guns and gun down hundreds and hundreds of people in the street one night any time soon, and I don’t know where you live, but I bet no one is going to do that there either.

 

I mean machine guns specifically? No. But I live in Berlin and I'm from England. None of the terror attacks in those places in my time have made me start wanting to randomly slaughter Muslim civilians. 

 

 

Again, I understand the fury and the frustration at there not being an actual answer. But your entire post seems aimed at convincing me that I should want to do that. That it's me that's weird if no part of me in fact wants Israel to slaughter civilians in response which, as you helpfully point out, they are. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by polishgenius

[Farerb]

Here's a reminder for people who think history only started in 1967:

.1929 Hebron massacre

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

would prevent more of this is a total fantasy

What would prevent it, or at least minimise it, according to others i spoke and it with, is investing in Gaza. If the people there had a better quality of life, Hamas would not get nearly as much support. This will never happen though because it serves the aims of the people in charge for the Palestinians to be desperate and so more likely to join organisations like Hamas. Ensuring the place is incredibly miserable, lacking in basic necessities, and being run like a prison is what they want.

[Crixus]

The perspective of an Israeli in Jerusalem - she condemns Hamas unequivocally and also manages to acknowledge the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli government/IDF. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

 

[Craving Peaches]

17 minutes ago, Crixus said:

The perspective of an Israeli in Jerusalem - she condemns Hamas unequivocally and also manages to acknowledge the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli government/IDF. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

 

On a similar note, there is this Israeli lawmaker: Israeli lawmaker blames pogroms against Palestinians for ‘terrible’ attacks | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Quote

“We condemn and oppose any assault on innocent civilians. But in contrast to the Israeli government that means that we oppose any assault on Palestinian civilians as well. We must analyse those terrible incidents [the attacks] in the right context – and that is the ongoing occupation,” Cassif said.

“We have been warning time and time again… everything is going to erupt and everybody is going to pay a price – mainly innocent civilians on both sides. And unfortunately, that is exactly what happened,” he said.

“The Israeli government, which is a fascist government, supports, encourages, and leads pogroms against the Palestinians. There is an ethnic cleansing going on. It was obvious the writing was on the wall, written in the blood of the Palestinians  – and unfortunately now Israelis as well,” he added.

Quote

“The only thing Netanyahu cares about is not the well-being of the citizens of Israel, let alone of Palestinians in the occupied territories,” Cassif said. “He is interested in surviving. He just wants to stay out of prison. That is the only motivation and incentive that drives [him].” 

I would also urge everyone to please read what the UN special rapporteur is saying about the conflict: ‘Necessary’ to stand with both Israelis, Palestinians, UN rapporteur says | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Quote

“It is very clear what lies ahead,” Albanese said. “Human rights organisations have said it all along that continuing to oppress a population with total impunity would lead to a catastrophe, and this is what is happening.

[Crixus]

31 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

On a similar note, there is this Israeli lawmaker: Israeli lawmaker blames pogroms against Palestinians for ‘terrible’ attacks | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

I would also urge everyone to please read what the UN special rapporteur is saying about the conflict: ‘Necessary’ to stand with both Israelis, Palestinians, UN rapporteur says | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera

Whilst it’s heartening to have rational voices, unfortunately they are totally sidelined in such situations, when bloodthirsty extremists on both sides have a clear agenda. It’s fucking tragic, imagining the horror Israeli civilians endured these last few days, and now the terror ordinary Palestinians are experiencing. 
 
As for Netanyahu, if this doesn’t get this massively corrupt cunt out of power, then fuck knows what will. I fear he’ll hang on with the excuse of handling the situation and the instability a change in leadership may bring. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Crixus

[Rippounet]

8 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Did the sttlements began with netanyahu, did the bombings, the killings, the apartheid, the walls, the prison, the orfan children? Netanyahu is the logical conclusion of what israel has been doing for decades.

Yes and no.
Netanyahu is not unopposed: just a few months ago, up to half-a-million people were demonstrating against his reforms.
As you certainly know, many -if not most- in Israel were well aware that continuous support for new settlements could only inflame terrorism. The scale of the attacks is what has left everyone in shock.
And though "now is not the time for finger pointing" (as I have been told), I've already seen at least two articles in Haaretz explicitly blaming Netanyahu for this tragedy. The NYT also ran an article reminding the readers that failure to ensure the security of the Israeli people is what put the right in power in the first place.
So, logical conclusion? Sure. Inevitable? Not quite. I understand your line of thought, but that only leads to grim conclusions. Conversely, while hope may seem naive, it is also pragmatic when it comes to future prospects. We know how the cycle of violence ends, so attemps to break it will have to be made.
I mean, it's that or the apocalypse.

[Knight Of Winter]

3 hours ago, Crixus said:

The perspective of an Israeli in Jerusalem - she condemns Hamas unequivocally and also manages to acknowledge the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli government/IDF. 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

If more people thought like the author of linked article, perhaps there would be a chance that this mess would not escalate to irreversibly-fucked-up levels. Not gonna happen, sadly. Wartime is not exactly the time and place for rational voices to spread.

2 hours ago, Crixus said:

As for Netanyahu, if this doesn’t get this massively corrupt cunt out of power, then fuck knows what will. I fear he’ll hang on with the excuse of handling the situation and the instability a change in leadership may bring. 

Not holding my hopes high here, either. Wartime also tends to massively increase the popularity of political leaders (especially if they win. And with Israel's huge military advantage - it's hard to imagine them not winning), even if they were hugely unpopular pre-war.

[baxus]

20 hours ago, Darryk said:

I also reject the notion that Israel can be Jewish or democratic but not both. There are Islamic countries that are democratic, like Lebanon, and loads of Christian countries that are democratic. Yes most people in these Christian countries may be secular but so are most people in Israel.

In my mind there's a difference between "a country with mostly Christian population" and "Christian country", just the same as there is between "a country with mostly Muslim population" and "Islamic country". It's a difference between "culture and customs are influenced by a specific religion" and "religious laws are in effect". Considering that most religions impose significant restriction to rights of women, "infidels", children, homosexuals etc. I don't think religious countries can really be democratic.

So, if we agree on that difference, I would appreciate hearing what are these "Christian" countries you speak of?

19 hours ago, ljkeane said:

That’s a very clear war crime by the way and the Israeli defence minister has just come out and said that’s what they’re doing. I didn’t post it earlier because I thought it might be being misreported but most major news services seem to be reporting it so it looks like it’s true.

This is all going to end very badly.

What shocked me was that Israeli defense minister flat out said that they are fighting "human animals". That kind of language used very clearly and without a shred of remorse is very dangerous. It's bad enough when it's used by some drunk guy in a bar, when it's used by a minister it's insane.

17 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

its kind of disingenuous to say that there isnt a massive difference in reporting palestinian suffering compared to events like the one we are talking about now

It is true that there is a difference. And it's not limited to Palestinians. In the same day Hamas attacked, there was a series of earthquakes in Afghanistan that left 2.000 people dead and 10.000 injured (numbers are a couple of days old and have probably increased). If I remember correctly, on the day when Charlie Ebdo (spelling?) offices in Paris were attacked there was an attack in Nigeria that had significantly higher number of victims that flew mostly under the radar.

That being said, and while it's not my intention to diminish the horrors Palestinian people are facing on a daily basis, talking about that at the moment when part of their population is actively involved in killing kids at a music festival, taking hostages etc. is going to fall on deaf ears. It may not be fair, but Hamas current actions are not fair either (just for the record, some Israeli government actions aren't either).

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

What shocked me was that Israeli defense minister flat out said that they are fighting "human animals".

Not even the first time an Israeli minister referred to them as animals: https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-deputy-defense-minister-called-palestinians-animals/amp/

That was around 8 years ago...

If the international community does not intervene now, something awful is going to happen.

 

[Darryk]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Considering that most religions impose significant restriction to rights of women, "infidels", children, homosexuals etc. I don't think religious countries can really be democratic.

So, if we agree on that difference, I would appreciate hearing what are these "Christian" countries you speak of?

Well Israel obviously is excellent when it comes to women's rights, homosexuals etc so no problem there. It's really a secular country.

America, England etc are traditionally Christian countries, the king of England is the head of the Anglican church. Most of the population may be secular but that's the case in Israel as well.

One thing I should have said earlier is that Judaism is not necessarily regarded as just a religion by many people. Jews are regarded as a nation. Hitler regarded them as a race, and didn't give a crap what religion the Jews he was killing followed.

So when people call Israel a Jewish state, you could argue it has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, but rather referring to it as a Jewish state in the same way America is an American state.

[Ran]

While the Ultra-Orthodox wing will no doubt prefer a religious state, the "Jewish state" thing is indeed for the most part a matter of national or cultural identity than a religious thing.

Of course, that sort of ethno-nationalism is itself part of the problem, since one of the hinderances to some solutions relate to demographics and a fear that a one-state solution would lead to the eventual displacement of Jews as the primary demographic of the state. 

 

 

[IheartIheartTesla]

Some potential bad news for the strip:

Quote

Israel’s Channel 12 reports that Israeli officials warned their Egyptian counterparts against supplying aid to the besieged Gaza strip, saying they would conduct airstrikes on trucks carrying supplies to the area.

Shortly after the announcement, convoys of fuel trucks and Egyptian goods due to enter Gaza via the southern border crossing with Egypt “retreated from the Rafah crossing,” said Channel 12. The crossing is currently closed indefinitely.

IDF has not confirmed it warned the Egyptian convoy.

Edited October 10, 2023 by IheartIheartTesla

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Do we know if our Israeli boarders are okay?

[Daeron the Daring]

24 minutes ago, Darryk said:

It's really a secular country.

Which in practice can mean a lot of things. 

In reality, Israel is a religiously very tense country, and without a doubt discriminative based on religion.

Denmark is not secular, meanwhile countries like Turkey or Russia are. Or the vocally very anti-immigrant Poland and Hungary. Or my own country, Romania.

Being secular doesn't disqualify a country of moving on the spectrum of religious freedom, and religious discrimination. And Israel is not a shining beacon of religious freedom, to say the least. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Of course, that sort of ethno-nationalism is itself part of the problem, since one of the hinderances to some solutions relate to demographics and a fear that a one-state solution would lead to the eventual displacement of Jews as the primary demographic of the state. 

It goes one step further than that. As an example, many white conservatives in the US are terrified of the idea of the country becoming a minority-majority country in part because they fear retribution despite there being no evidence that would likely happen. Jews in Israel have the same fear and they actually have a long past they can point to that makes those fears far more credible. This is why a one state solution with the right to return is not something they'll likely ever accept. 

[Craving Peaches]

Quote

“There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly.”

Someone really has to step in before it is too late.