US Politics: Courting Justice...or Disaster?

[Fragile Bird]

Geez, I go off grocery shopping and to make dinner and do tasks and there are pages and pages of responses.

I’ll repeat what I said, I think that mental illness is involved here. I did not use the words crazy or insane or other derogatory terms. Depression is a mental illness. There are forms of trauma that create mental instability in people. The fact is this guy died by suicide, no matter how some of you want to dress it up, he killed himself. 

The US has the highest suicide rate of any industrialized country. And it’s been climbing. 78% of cases are men. The majority of people are seniors, and loneliness and depression are major factors. And being the US, being seriously ill is also a major factor, many people kill themselves because they don’t have health insurance and they don’t want to be a burden to their families. Being a member of the military I expect that wasn’t an issue here, but none of us know if he was in fact ill and decided to go out dramatically.

I am likely the oldest person posting here and I have seen numerous suicides over the decades. All of them involved depression. Yes, people kill themselves for other reasons, but the likelihood is that some mental condition was involved. He was going to leave the military, maybe he was afraid. Maybe he was in a serious relationship that broke up and he was depressed. Maybe he had $50,000 of credit card debt. Maybe he committed a crime and was about to be found out.

Maybe he simply was depressed, depression not caused by a break-up or fear or wrong doing but because he was depressed and didn’t see any way out of it. When I was his age I suffered from bouts of depression, and when you’re depressed it can feel like you’re drowning and there is no way out. Maybe he sincerely believed what he said before he died, and since he was contemplating suicide anyway decided to make a statement so it wouldn’t seem like it had all been for nothing. I’m gonna kill myself but if I say it was for a cause maybe my family will forgive me.

I have strong feelings about suicide and I don’t think people are in their right minds when they kill themselves. You can go ahead and disagree with me and paint his death as altruistic and noble, and I say bs. 

There are lots of people in this thread who expressed very strong and powerful feelings about the events going on in Gaza. Hands up those of you who are planning on self-immolation. My expectation is that there are zero hands up because none of you are suffering from a serious mental illness.

Oh, and I don’t expect there will be a series of copycat suicides in the US military. Those of you dreaming of death are going to be disappointed.

Edited February 27 by Fragile Bird
Sp

[Conflicting Thought]

maybe he wasnt depressed and he wasnt disturned or mentally ill, maybe he did what he did for what he said he did it for. he had very strong convictions and he did what he thought was best to further a just cause

[chuck norris 42]

God help me, I know it is inappropriate to judge but sort yourself out America, you are  giving me the shits 

Edited February 27 by chuck norris 42

[Tears of Lys]

6 hours ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Well we've been instructed not to discuss Gaza so maybe that's got something to do with the way this discussion in this particular thread has been going.  

Maybe something be constantly in the news while the world looked on asking nicely for it to stop seemed absurd to this person.  

I don't think that's what happened.  People were using terms they had been warned not to use - specifically, "Nazi."   A few (?) pages before the last Israel/Gaza thread had been closed, Ran had stated that the next time that particular term was used, the thread was going bye-bye.  They as good as did it, and Ran followed through.

I think if people can keep their shit together, another thread about Israel/Gaza is possible.  It's kinda hijacked the US Politics thread.  

 

ETA:  Or maybe I'm wrong.  @Ran will let us know.

Edited February 27 by Tears of Lys

[karaddin]

The last thread was locked with the instruction that there was not to be another unless Ran himself created it. 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/163719-israel-hamas-war-xvi/&do=findComment&comment=9016282

[BigFatCoward]

if anyone has a right to set themselves on fire in protest its this poor fucker

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68400463  

in case its blocked for those outside the uk, its about a man who was away from home when 103 members of his family were killed in a strike on Gaza.  How do you even begin to grieve something like that? 

 

 

[Rippounet]

8 hours ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Buddy, he didn't change anyone's opinion in a meaningful way.

He didn't change *your* opinion. You dont speak for the world.

Edited February 27 by Rippounet

[Derfel Cadarn]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

if anyone has a right to set themselves on fire in protest its this poor fucker

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68400463  

in case its blocked for those outside the uk, its about a man who was away from home when 103 members of his family were killed in a strike on Gaza.  How do you even begin to grieve something like that? 

 

 

Including his three daughtere. He was working in Tel Aviv I believe, at the time

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

He didn't change *your* opinion. You dont speak for the world.

You really think there are many people who are like, "I didn't know how to think about the situation, but hey, after that guy set himself on fire now I do and support his beliefs?" 

[Kyoshi]

2 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

if anyone has a right to set themselves on fire in protest its this poor fucker

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68400463  

in case its blocked for those outside the uk, its about a man who was away from home when 103 members of his family were killed in a strike on Gaza.  How do you even begin to grieve something like that? 

 

 

This is why people don't want to vote for Biden. There are American Arabs and Palestinians who have lost 50+ family members in airstrikes funded and supplied by Biden. So the question becomes, how do you tell someone like that, "But if you don't vote blue, Trump will get in, and he's so much worse." How do you measure worse-ness when the guy in charge right now is pretty much telling you he cares more about the idea of Israel, and not the actual Israel that exists and oppresses millions of people just because they're the "wrong" ethnic group? I understand people not wanting to let Trump in, but honestly, I understand people wanting to get abandon Biden even more. What exactly is the difference between Democrats and Republicans right now? If nothing else, current events seem to be proving Raul Castro correct when he said "America is a one party-state, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them."

EDIT: just to say I'm not ranting against you specifically, but you brought up something a lot of the "vote blue no matter what" people are willing to just push aside because it doesn't concern them personally, and they can afford to say, "but look at the bigger picture." The bigger picture just isn't there for some people anymore.

Edited February 27 by Kyoshi

[Gaston de Foix]

Can two things be true at the same time:  setting yourself on fire is the act of an unbalanced mind and paying attention to/fixating on real trauma and horror will in fact unbalance you? 

Anyway, in other (sad) news, today is gonna be a blockbuster day in the slow-unwinding of Fulton County's prosecution of Donald Trump and his Bros.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

What exactly is the difference between Democrats and Republicans right now? 

One party doesn't want to end our democracy? Kind of a massive difference. But hey, if you're not down with the sane, but flawed party enjoy the wackos taking over who will be even worse on the issue you're focusing on. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

13 hours ago, Tears of Lys said:

I don't think that's what happened.  People were using terms they had been warned not to use - specifically, "Nazi."   A few (?) pages before the last Israel/Gaza thread had been closed, Ran had stated that the next time that particular term was used, the thread was going bye-bye.  They as good as did it, and Ran followed through.

I think if people can keep their shit together, another thread about Israel/Gaza is possible.  It's kinda hijacked the US Politics thread.  

 

ETA:  Or maybe I'm wrong.  @Ran will let us know.

Right on.  I was thinking of this when I said that form the last US politics thread.

Edited February 27 by Larry of the Lawn

[Larry of the Lawn]

26 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

One party doesn't want to end our democracy? Kind of a massive difference. But hey, if you're not down with the sane, but flawed party enjoy the wackos taking over who will be even worse on the issue you're focusing on. 

The American voter gets zero input on foreign policy.  Our choices each year are something between horrible and irresponsible vs horrible and cashing in on violence.  There's no candidate for peace.  There's no candidate for reducing military spending.  

Is there no part of you that can understand someone just saying fuck it all, I'm not participating in this.  Just because one candidate is better doesn't mean people are compelled to vote for the other guy who they find to be reprehensible.  Keep bullying people into voting how you think makes the most sense.  See how that works since you're so concerned with how every single fucking action anyone takes, whether it's mild criticism of US foreign policy or someone lighting himself on fire, effects this election.

Edit: like, I actually agree with you, that's why I'm voting for Biden even though it feels disgusting.  But I am not about to bully and berate and make fun of someone who has made the same calculations and decided that they can't do that.  And beyond being ineffective it's tedious and condescending.  

Edited February 27 by Larry of the Lawn

[Zorral]

Just as we know who always derail the discussing and changing gun laws and all the rest of the irrational attitudes around gun violence, how many are killed, maimed (even for life), traumatized (even for life) including the prevalence of suicide that unlike the self-martyred US soldier was not done for altruistic, empathic reasons, and which certainly inconvienced so very many around the suicid -- lets not discuss the reasons, the actions being committed by individuals and states that are killing hundreds and hundreds per day.  With bombs, guns, deliberate cruelty, deliberate policy, that includes starvation and disease.  Lets not.  Lets argue for pages whether or not the self-selected martyr is insane.  Nor shall we disccus the reality that prolonged and deliberate cruelty create trauma and anger -- and a willingness for martyrdom.  Which is really how we got to this place where there are those who are willing to choose martyrdom in a terribly agonizing, and even prolonged way of self-inflicted death that disturbs some sorts to the point of anger and dismissal, while not declaring sadness and empathy for those who kill themselves with guns.  Sheesh.

[Luzifer's right hand]

Self immolation as a protest has a long tradition. It's not even the first one in the USA that is connected to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Climate activists have done it too in the past. Next to nobody gives a shit usually.

People are not ignoring completely this time because it was streamed.

Edited February 27 by Luzifer's right hand

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Larry of the Lawn said:

Is there no part of you that can understand someone just saying fuck it all, I'm not participating in this.  Just because one candidate is better doesn't mean people are compelled to vote for the other guy who they find to be reprehensible. 

Yes I am going to bully them, because not picking a side when you only have two choices doesn't absolve you of the bad shit either, and many times you end up contributing to the worse side. There's no honor in that. Be a fucking adult. Voting is strategic and you have to often vote for people you despise. 

Edited February 27 by Mr. Chatywin et al.

[Larry of the Lawn]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

Yes I am going to bully them, because not picking a side when you only have two choices doesn't absolve you of the bad shit either, and many times you end up contributing to the worse side. There's no honor in that. Be a fucking adult. Voting is strategic and you have to often vote for people you despise. 

Do you think a person can do the moral or ethical math on that and come up with a different answer?  

Do you think that bullying someone about vague concepts like honor and telling them to be an adult is going to get them to the polls?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

You're the one assuming he wanted to change people's opinion.  But if you think that it's impossible to change people's opinion, why on earth would you think that an online protest will matter in the least?

Again, such a weird argument to try and make! 

If he wasn’t attempting to change people’s opinion about Israel’s war in Gaza… what was the point of his suicide?

[Kyoshi]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Chatywin et al. said:

One party doesn't want to end our democracy? Kind of a massive difference. But hey, if you're not down with the sane, but flawed party enjoy the wackos taking over who will be even worse on the issue you're focusing on. 

I don't know bro, genocide is a pretty big issue to most. I'm going to say the following with the assumption that you're white and male, in which case, I will hint that perhaps your democracy is not the same democracy experienced by people who do not fall under those demographics. The fact that you can so easily fill pages upon pages with apathetic, empathy-bankrupt rhetoric should tell you how differently you and I experience the world. That's not ad hominem by the way, just the underlying factors that inform our respective politics. "More important" issues to you are too high in the sky for some voters, because they're still on the bare basics, just trying to get the government to stop supporting, arming and funding a genocidal regime that is wiping out their families. But again, that's not important enough for you, because you have "bigger issues" to focus on. That should tell why to some, blue and red are the same.