War Declared in Israel

[karaddin]

@Tywin et al. @mormont I'm pretty sure you've just been talking across purposes here. Ty when you said that a reasonable deal starts and ends with accepting the existence of Israel I'm pretty sure mormont took that to mean it is the only important criteria for if the deal is reasonable and that the Palestinian side of the deal is irrelevant. On the contrary I think you simply meant that it's a core requirement that is essential for any deal to be reasonable, the other components will of course need to be negotiated but that one cannot be. That's all mormont was asking you to confirm and the misunderstanding spiralled from there.

I also agree with polishgenius - Ty's not Bibi and shouldn't be having to disavow that shit right now. 

Everyone should also try keep in mind the wider global context that has seen a dramatic uptick in the amount of open neo nazis doing rallies in Western nations, and a lot of others spouting various levels of veiled antisemitism in the last decade. I'm not Jewish and this shit scares me. I'm pretty fucking sure if I was Jewish that would be lurking in my mind as I tried to process this. So let's cut some slack while people are dealing with this in the immediate aftermath.

Ty - I do also think you're misunderstanding what Kal meant which was that feeling truly safe isn't an achievable outcome due to all this above shit. It's also pretty clearly not a conversation you should be dragged into right now, so not suggesting you should resume it.

[House Balstroko]

Both sides are very much guilty of stoking the flames of extremism. There’s no way around it.

 

On one hand, you’ve got Hamas and radical Islam that wants to wipe Israel off the map. On the other, you’ve got the current right wing Israeli government looking at ways to carve up more land in the West Bank. 
 

There needs to be avenues for de-escalation that both sides are willing to pursue in order to create a more sustainable situation. Healing long term wounds can be very difficult. If I remember correctly, French president François Mitterrand was initially against German reunification. 

[Conflicting Thought]

ill start by saying im jewish and my family and i have been talking about what is happening and how we feel, we are both so far away (in Chile) and at the same time so so close to this, we have family in israel, family that has been called by the military to serve, family that has been victims of terrorist attacks, my cousin almos died when a bomb exploted in a bus he was riding, he got out in his stop and a few meters after the bus exploded, his friend was in there....if we want this violence to end we must acknowledge the very very real suffering of the palestinian people, kids living there whole lives (and it hasnt been very long, mayority of people living in gaza are 20 years old or yunger) in a prison and worse than a prison being bombed and humilliated 24/7 having no control over their lives, and for far longer than when netanyahu took power...

i don know the answer to solve this, but we must not let our emotions overcome us right now (and i mean rage, hatred that kind of emotion ) we must have empathy if we ever want to live in peace and idk if that is ever going to possible and i know is sounds like some hippie disconnected bulsshit but...idk i have so many conflicting feelings in me right now, very angry at the state of israel, obviously at hamas to but...maybe this is not the place to say all this, although i do think this IS the moment to have this conversations, try and temperate our emotions...

idk sorry for the ramble 

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

While I'm looking at things from the opposite side to most people on this board (being an Arab-American/Israeli Arab) I too have conflicted feelings. If I had to put my thoughts into words, I guess I'd say I'm sad things have devolved to such a low point. That and I pray this doesn't lead to violence against Arabs (Muslim as well as Christian) within the 48/67 borders themselves.

[Luzifer's right hand]

11 hours ago, Rippounet said:

OTOH, I think that's where Hamas made a terrible miscalculation. What was probably supposed to be a terrorist operation became a demonstration of barbarism. This will give Netanyahu a lot of leeway.

I'm active on some usually really left wing German language sites and the response to the public and online demonstrations of barbarism is massive.

I feel people massively understimate how much this damaged the support of the Palestinians in Germany.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Luzifer's right hand

[Toth]

21 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

I'm active on some usually really left wing German language sites and the response to the public and online demonstrations of barbarism is massive.

I feel people massively understimate how much this damaged the support of the Palestinians in Germany.

No doubt about that. But the atrocities weren't aimed at us anyway and it's not like we were ever able to affect Israel's policies in the first place.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Toth

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 minute ago, Toth said:

No doubt about that. But the atrocities weren't aimed at us anyway and it's not like we were ever able to affect Israel's policies in the first place.

Next to nobody cares about the aim of the attacks. People care about the woman on the truck.

People talk about the suffering of the Palestinians. They will suffer even more if aid payments are cut.

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

They will suffer even more if aid payments are cut.

This is not as definitive an argument as you might think.  Financial aid isn't viewed as this universal positive.  More as a  sentence of "eternal servitude".  It tries to distract people from how things get worse and worse.  Or it is viewed as a threat that people better behave yourself.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Has Hamas said anything about the slaughter at the music festival?  What possible non-bullshit justification could be offered?

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

11 minutes ago, Padraig said:

This is not as definitive an argument as you might think.  Financial aid isn't viewed as this universal positive.  More as a  sentence of "eternal servitude".  It tries to distract people from how things get worse and worse.  Or it is viewed as a threat that people better behave yourself.

If that is the goal they succeed at least temporary. Austria has decided to freeze payments too(19 million €).

But I don't see how not getting money for schools or hospitals is helping the average person in Gaza and the West Bank.

[mormont]

You're presenting this withdrawal of foreign aid as a negative for Palestinians, and it is. But Hamas provides Palestinians in Gaza with schools and hospital care, so as a disincentive to attacks like this, withdrawal of foreign aid doesn't work. It just makes the population even more dependent on Hamas. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

You're presenting this withdrawal of foreign aid as a negative for Palestinians, and it is. But Hamas provides Palestinians in Gaza with schools and hospital care, so as a disincentive to attacks like this, withdrawal of foreign aid doesn't work. It just makes the population even more dependent on Hamas. 

I never claimed that it was negative for Hamas.

It is not about being a disincentive to attacks but an emotional response that undermines support for the Palestinians very effectively.

[Relic]

25 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Has Hamas said anything about the slaughter at the music festival?  What possible non-bullshit justification could be offered?

 

What can they say other than that they enjoyed brutally murdering hundreds of ravers.

The barbaric nature of what happened this weekend is horrifying, disgusting, depressing, and every other negative adjective. It illustrated the very worst that humanity has to offer. 

Personally, I can't help but to think of it as a lid blowing off a pressure cooker. The violence in Gaza is systemic, generational, genocidal, and mostly unwitnessed by westerners. 

It's all very fucking sad, and makes me want to leave this planet.

[Darryk]

Attacks on civilians have to be condemned on both sides but a lot of people (not directing this at anyone here I'm directing it at people on Twitter) have taken the opportunity to preach instead of acknowledging the horror that Israelis have just experienced. Yes, the occupation and blockade of Gaza is brutal but you think people would be able to give it a rest in the wake of 200 kids dead at festival.

I'm fully with @Tywin et al. here in that Israel needs to exist, Jews have a right to a state in their ancestral homeland, not in fucking Australia or whatever people on Twitter keep suggesting.

I'm especially invested since I have a lot of friends and family in Israel including my sister-in-law's niece who has just joined the airforce.

Maybe saying a place where Jews can "feel safe" isn't the right choice of words but rather a country that looks out for them and that they'll always be able to go when the shit hits the fan in other countries. Obviously a Palestinian state would always háte Israel but India and Pakistan hate each other too yet have managed to co-exist, so it can happen.

I also reject the notion that Israel can be Jewish or democratic but not both. There are Islamic countries that are democratic, like Lebanon, and loads of Christian countries that are democratic. Yes most people in these Christian countries may be secular but so are most people in Israel.

Let me be clear that I utterly despise the occupation, the brutal treatment of Gaza and the Netanyahu government, but I will never accept a one-state solution or the argument that Israel shouldn't exist or that a Jewish state should have been founded somewhere else.

[Fragile Bird]

Facebook is taking revenge on the people of Canada because the Canadian government wants Facebook (and Google) to pay organizations and people for the content they post. So there are no news stories being shown on Facebook in Canada. That pissed off a lot of people as forest fires swept across parts of the country and you couldn’t just go to Facebook, as you used to, to get the latest update on how close a fire was to your house. Eff off and die, said Facebook. There’s no marking yourself “safe” from something in Canada, because there’s no news about events like fires and storms and shootings and, ya know, wars.

I know you guys are all going to your feeds and seeing endless stories about the terrible events going on in Israel. We aren’t. Well, we’re going to the CBC and CTV and newspaper sites, but it’s turning this event into a fascinating exercise in corporate news suppression. It may be a good thing. Maybe there will be fewer attacks on mosques and less anger directed at people in Muslim garb. Maybe.

eta: I just wanted to add that Iran could literally drop a nuclear bomb on Israel, Israel could do that to Gaza, North Korea could send a nuclear bomb on a missile to Japan or Hawaii  in “support” of Hamas, and nobody on Fb would know. You’d just see more websites and groups about museums and archeology and dogs and knitting patterns and cartoons.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Fragile Bird

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

What can they say other than that they enjoyed brutally murdering hundreds of ravers.

The barbaric nature of what happened this weekend is horrifying, disgusting, depressing, and every other negative adjective. It illustrated the very worst that humanity has to offer. 

Personally, I can't help but to think of it as a lid blowing off a pressure cooker. The violence in Gaza is systemic, generational, genocidal, and mostly unwitnessed by westerners. 

It's all very fucking sad, and makes me want to leave this planet.

I hear you and I appreciate what you are saying.  This is awful on so many levels and the brutality of Hamas doesn’t justify or excuse Israel’s earlier actions.  In my earnest opinion.  Nor do earlier Israeli actions justify or excuse Hamas’ brutality.

[Relic]

40 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I know you guys are all going to your feeds and seeing endless stories about the terrible events going on in Israel. 

? Who gets their news from Facebook anymore? I certainly don't. I recommend the Aljazeera website if you want some real news on the matter. 

[Relic]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I hear you and I appreciate what you are saying.  This is awful on so many levels and the brutality of Hamas doesn’t justify or excuse Israel’s earlier actions.  In my earnest opinion.  Nor do earlier Israeli actions justify or excuse Hamas’ brutality.

Right, there is no excuse for any of this. Just a massive tragic horrible clusterfuck. And it's only to get worse.

The shit happening in Gaza today is as sickening as what happened this weekend. Its more sterile, in a way, cuz bombs just have a way of incinerating evidence, but no less horrific. 

[Fragile Bird]

5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I hear you and I appreciate what you are saying.  This is awful on so many levels and the brutality of Hamas doesn’t justify or excuse Israel’s earlier actions.  In my earnest opinion.  Nor do earlier Israeli actions justify or excuse Hamas’ brutality.

I am a pretty peaceful person. CNN reporters are at the site of the music festival, rave, whatever it was, and they showed the bomb shelters where people ran to hide and where Hamas gunmen ran in after them and slaughtered them. 

Part of my brain is saying, if Israeli soldiers cross into Gaza and just gun down people in the streets I won’t give a shit. The other part says two wrongs don’t make a right, but Hamas has many hostages and I don’t expect them to live.

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, Relic said:

? Who gets their news from Facebook anymore? I certainly don't. I recommend the Aljazeera website if you want some real news on the matter. 

Oh please, don’t be such a self-righteous turkey at a time like this. Lots of people on the board discuss things on Facebook all the time.